How To Make Your Hospitality Business More Sustainable

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Welcome to Talking Hospitality.

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I'm Tracy Rashid.

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And I'm Sarah Kettel Today's episode is a

hot topic, sustainability.

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Sustainability is a critical concept that

focuses on meeting the needs of the

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present without compromising the ability

of the future generations to meet their

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own needs.

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It encompasses environmental, social and

economic dimensions, aiming to create a

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balanced and harmonious relationship

between society, the environment and the

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economy.

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And our guest today is right in the thick

of it.

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Thanks for watching!

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Since 2015, our guest Andrea Zick has been

working as a PA to the GM at the Oxo Tower

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Restaurant Bar and Brasserie.

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In this role, she's led the business to

win the accolade of Food Made Good

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Community Champion from the Sustainable

Restaurant Association in: 2017

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She then went on to lead the Oxo Tower

Restaurant Bar and Brasserie to win the

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Most Sustainable Restaurant at the

National Restaurants Awards: 2019

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Green Michelin Star in 2021.

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Welcome, Andrea.

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We are so pleased to have you here as our

guest today.

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How are you?

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I'm very well and it's wonderful to meet

you in person, I'd like to say, even

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though it's virtual.

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So we can hear there's a lot of background

noise.

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Where are you at the moment?

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I'm actually at the restaurant.

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I've taken basically an hour out of work

to meet you and to talk a little bit about

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very much my personal views on

sustainability.

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So not really representing the business

here in the conversation, but sharing

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hopefully some insights of.

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my journey in sustainability with others.

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So now some of you might be thinking we've

all heard about sustainability, we know

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what it is, we know it's a good thing, but

what does sustainability actually mean?

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You obviously did a very good job in

explaining it, at least defining it in the

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intro, which would have probably been how

I would have started.

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And maybe I go one step further and say

what sustainability means for me in a

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business context.

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I would say what it really means is to

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go into dialogue with every person in the

business about if you like the practices

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they are currently applying and

understanding how these practices may

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influence these three dimensions you

mentioned.

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The environment, social and governance, or

the people, the planet and the profit of

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the business.

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And then literally exploring how their

practices, if they're influencing these

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things, could be improved, changed.

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and transitioned to something different.

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Yeah, that's definitely a bit more

elaborated than what we said as a

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definition of sustainability without a

doubt.

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I think communication is a core

ingredient.

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So as a previous chef, I always think of

things and recipes.

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Communication is one of the important

ingredients.

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I think it's also trying to be empathetic

for the needs of everyone who's actually

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creating the change processes, because

sustainability ultimately is a

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journey within that journey you are often

asking people to change the way they are

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currently working or to apply change to

the business they are in, the system they

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are in.

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And that often requires, and that's really

another key ingredient, empathy and

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compassion for when things aren't that

straightforward.

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And going back to the communication, it

isn't telling, it's literally a dialogue

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which is very different to you need to do

this.

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And I would say sustainability projects

become more successful if consensus and

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dialogue is the kind of starting point.

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And then people are also going into a

place where they are willing to

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experiment.

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And I always think I'm so lucky as a chef

back in my previous life.

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I always loved experimenting and being

creative.

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So sustainability probably uses some of

that.

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love for creation and being a little bit

of a maverick and trying things out.

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Andrea, I love the fact that you're saying

that, you know, it's not just about what

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you're doing wrong, but it's that journey,

it's understanding it's changed.

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When there's people involved, that's never

the easiest thing to do.

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It's so clear that you're passionate about

sustainability and what you do.

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But what inspired you?

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to get into that field, was it like a big

bang or was it like a slow process?

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How did you get into it?

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I wouldn't say it was a big bang.

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There's something I learned yesterday

called ancestral knowing.

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And ancestral knowing is kind of almost

the inherited knowledge we carry through

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our lives.

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So as a child in my family, I was lucky

enough to be exposed to a garden and the

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opportunity to grow things and to see how

things grow.

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And that...

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kind of almost planted the seed of

understanding the connection of how we

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influence the planet, it influences us

back.

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So that's something which happened a long,

long time ago.

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And then I studied nutrition and health.

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At that point, I got really interested in

the question of world hunger, food

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insecurity.

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Then I got increasingly more conscious of,

feel like the limitations, the

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environmental limitations of our planet.

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When you then go down that rabbit hole and

you realize all there is environmental

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limitations, you then also have to start

asking yourself what are the economic

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limitations for a business if there's only

so much the planet can give.

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And then there's maybe one other dimension

which got me there.

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I'm a yogi and...

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When you do yoga, you often connect

through the world in a lens where you fear

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that everything is connected.

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And I think that feeds into this idea of

sustainability as well.

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Andrea, I know you just mentioned about

being fortunate enough to grow up with,

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you know, seeing food grown in a garden.

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And I was very much like that as well.

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It's always been important to me to pass

it on to my children and understand about.

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food wastage and the process and all those

kind of things that we should be very,

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very conscious of.

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And we've heard very much about these

strategies such as farm to fork.

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So how do you work with Oxo to develop

menus that really emphasize

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sustainability?

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Whatever sustainability practices and

projects you want to implant, it's always

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important to almost assess the present

first.

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So talking to the team you are working in.

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assessing what are we doing currently,

then ask yourself what's the future vision

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and even with that future vision you want

to bring in the people who are working

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with you because my vision might be very

different to your vision, right?

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And unless we are kind of trying to create

a joint vision it will be really hard to

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actually transition from A to B.

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And when you've created...

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basically the present and the future, you

can then think about what transition plans

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you can take.

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And these transition plans will be very

different for different businesses.

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So within the business we are working in,

it kind of feels like a dance.

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We introduce something, we test it, we use

what feels right for our business, and

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then remove the things which don't quite

feel right.

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As an example, we've worked on food waste

reduction for quite a while.

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We started this when the Sustainable

Restaurant Association launched something

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called Food Waste Bad Pest and that was

linked to the organization called Rapids,

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an NGO, and they tackle waste on a broader

scale, but food waste is one of the

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things.

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Really it started simple with us saying,

okay, we want to get an understanding of

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how much food waste we are creating.

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And then we started measuring and while we

started measuring, we learned about how

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are we actually creating waste, in what

areas are we creating waste, who might be

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the best person to tell us what waste is

created, then who are the people who might

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have the biggest influence in reducing

this waste.

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We started it this way and then...

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we went on to a journey of learning that

was supported by then eventually signing

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up to the Guardians of Grubb training.

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A whole bunch of people in the business

trained on the Guardians of Grubb training

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that allowed us then to kind of connect

front of house and back of house on this

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kind of mission to produce food based.

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I've done the the wrap Guardians of the

Grubb training as well and it's really

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inspirational and as a chef in the kitchen

you don't really think about what are the

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what are the front of house doing and how

how do they.

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Like you fill in a questionnaire at the

beginning and one of the first questions

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is, who are the people in your restaurant?

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Who are your key stakeholders?

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And it does actually go through front of

house.

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And that's sort of made me go, oh, oh

yeah, okay, it does have an impact.

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And I really hadn't thought about it

before.

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So for anyone who's not done Guardians of

the Grub training, I would suggest doing

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it for all your staff.

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It's really good, really insightful.

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I'm very pleased to say that our ambition

to reduce food waste by half since we

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started the measuring is on track.

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We still kind of see spikes and troughs,

so it's something we certainly want to

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continue looking at.

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But we are certainly on track achieving

that, and that's just such an amazing

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achievement.

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And this wouldn't be possible if we

wouldn't have brought in different team

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members, even if you think there's

sometimes invisible places.

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So...

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our sales team and our reservations teams

are just as important in this process

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because if for whatever reason they are

missing to update the bookings, then we

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potentially overproduce.

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If they are not putting in the information

of someone being an allergen in events,

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again, we probably produce food, but it's

not edible by these guests.

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So it becomes like a network operation and

you really want to bring in.

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as many people as possible, but equally

you need to streamline it so you can

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actually start progressing.

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I have a question for you both actually

being chefs.

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There's a very much like background of,

you know, making sure that something is as

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square as possible, even if it was

originally round.

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So there's wastage and things that, you

presentation is obviously very important,

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especially the more high end you go with,

with the cuisine.

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So is it more difficult to bring those

types of chefs, especially maybe the old

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school, along the sustainability journey?

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In weird ways, that's maybe something I'm

exploring in my PhD research to a level.

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It's not the main focus, but it's somewhat

generational difference between how we see

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good food to sum it up.

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So I think if you speak to someone who's

going to culinary schools now with the

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vice and sustainability conversation and

messaging, I think there's probably more

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of an awareness that good food.

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has to be linked to that as well.

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Whereas traditionally, I would say, chefs

probably associated good food with taste

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and indulgence and hedonism.

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And I'm not saying that this isn't true

still.

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I think we are almost adding another

dimension now into how we want to create

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food and kind of taking that on board.

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What do you think, Sarah?

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I think previously where you'd have seen

perhaps, you know, the good example is the

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case of fish, right, where

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previously, you might have seen a piece

cut off the side or a piece cut off the

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end to square the shape.

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And that would have been considered waste.

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But you really wouldn't see that now.

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And you know, even things like fish skin,

it's, it's become cool to eat fish skin

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crackling.

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Yeah, like skin would have been discarded

before.

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Can you still make beautiful food, which

is a direct to your eyes, not over

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trimming?

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Yeah, of course you can.

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And I think people have moved towards

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So, Andrea, how can the hospitality

industry have a bigger voice in food

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systems for sustainable eating?

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It's a big question.

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And the reason why it's a big question is

that it's because hospitality is so

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varied.

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So I give you an example.

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If you're a hotel or an events company,

the impact of your...

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business will sit in a different area than

a restaurant.

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If we are just looking at greenhouse gas

emissions and that of course isn't the

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only dimensions we might be considering

within sustainability, a hotel's

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greenhouse gas emissions are likely to be

much higher in the transport of their

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guests coming to the hotel proportionately

than maybe the food specifically.

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Let's say if you're a hotel which just

does bed and breakfast, right?

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You're already just by buying produce,

you're

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costs are already lower on the food side.

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So how a hotel will influence the

conversation around environmental

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conversations will be slightly different

to maybe a restaurant.

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Then again, with events, similar thing

with events, you're probably going to have

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guests traveling in.

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And that might also have a much, much

higher impact on the overall footprint the

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business is generating.

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For me, and that's kind of where I like to

say I'm a bit more specialized maybe.

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I look at how food in particular, food and

drink impact the planet.

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And that's because I work in a restaurant

and a lot of the certainly greenhouse gas

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emissions and probably a lot of the other

environmental impacts are driven by the

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food and drink we are buying.

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I don't want to ignore that when we are

switching on the light, when we are

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switching on the hops, that's what you

call in sustainability language, scope one

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and two emissions, they play a role as

well.

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But if you start looking at...

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where are the biggest impact of our

business?

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They tend to sit in the things we are

buying and then selling, prospectively.

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That means that understanding when we are

buying food, where it's coming from, how

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it's being produced, is becoming

increasingly more important.

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And then the next layer, and that's

certainly my view, when you're starting to

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think about, okay, it's food and drink,

which has potentially the biggest impact

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in the business, on the planet, then how

can we now

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modulate the food and drink offer to

remove some of these impacts or reduce

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some of these impacts and still deliver

the sort of experience our guests are

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looking after.

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They still want to eat luxuriously.

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They still want to treat themselves coming

to the restaurant.

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As a more practical example, if you come

to the restaurant at the moment, we sell

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beef.

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people love to treat themselves coming to

a restaurant and say, this is my one time

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a year where I might actually treat

myself.

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So they're probably going to order a beef

fillet.

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It's one of our best sellers.

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Now from sustainability point of view,

that's drama for me, because it's got one

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of the highest impacts.

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So removing it from the menu is probably

not an option at this moment in time.

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Yeah, but what we can do is asking

ourselves, how can we actually get the

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beef on the plate?

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in the lowest impact version.

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So asking ourselves, can we find a farmer

who farms the cutter in ways which are

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more regenerative?

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Can we consider maybe the size of the cut?

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Is the way we are putting that leaf onto

the plate producing waste which is

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unnecessary?

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And can we reduce that waste around it,

for example?

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So it's kind of asking ourselves, what are

the things we can influence by still

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delivering what our guests are looking

for?

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It's so insightful.

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There's so much going on in the background

that as a consumer, you don't really

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realize it's just a piece of meat, you

know, but there's so much that goes on

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behind.

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And you saying that there's like tears of

the kind of emissions has never even

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crossed my mind before.

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And the fact that restaurants or hotels

take ownership of their customers journey

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footprint as well.

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That's definitely news to me.

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It's quite a responsibility.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I never.

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To me, I wouldn't have thought that was

part of their responsibility, you know?

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I would say there's still a little bit of

a debate around what proportion they

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should be taking ownership of, because

there's a difference and this is when it

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gets very technical.

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So when you do life cycle analysis, which

is where you're trying to assess how much

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greenhouse gas emissions or how much

impacts are going into a product, a

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service, you make assumptions.

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And is it right to assume that someone

traveling to the restaurant is only

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coming to the restaurant for only meeting

the restaurant, only eating there, or

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where they're on a journey already

somewhere and passing through.

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Right?

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So therefore, you then have to ask

yourself, do we need to challenge some of

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these assumptions?

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And that will vary again for each

business.

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Yeah, that's a tough one.

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A central London restaurant is probably

more likely in a position where someone is

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passing through, whereas if I am a

destination restaurant in a beautiful

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space,

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In the countryside, it's less likely that

someone is passing through there, actually

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making the journey specifically for that

restaurant.

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Yeah.

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Sarah asked you a question about the food

systems.

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So can you tell us more about the UK Food

Systems Centre for doctoral training and

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how you think the next generation of

doctors will approach diet advice?

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So the UK Food Systems Centre for doctoral

training is where I'm currently doing my

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PhD.

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It's based in Greenwich and it's training

60 students in the UK food system.

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And when we talk about the UK food system,

people often don't really quite know what

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the food system is.

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So the food system, as I would define it

as a PhD student, is basically everything

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which is involved in getting food to our

table.

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So that's the growing of the food,

transporting of the food, the processing,

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the potentially storing of the food, the

further.

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processing in a kitchen or in a

restaurant, then the distributing it and

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then also the what happens after it.

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So if there's food waste or if there's

waste or leftovers on the plate, what

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happens to it afterwards?

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That's part of it as well.

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And the people I'm lucky enough to spend

time with, so the other doctoral students

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and the lecturers and their supervisors,

they are all really, really keen on

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understanding how can we shift this big...

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beast if you like, to have better outcomes

for society, for the environment.

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: 00:18:57

Students look at different things, so some

might be working purely on farming, some

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might be looking at the logistics

processes, some might be interested in

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: 00:19:06

things like nutritionally, what do we need

to start growing to make sure that in the

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next generation we actually have healthier

diets and again that's a...

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: 00:19:18

spongy term, what I define as healthy

might not be what other people define as

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healthy.

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: 00:19:23

What policies would we need to put in

place and what governance systems do we

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: 00:19:28

need to put in place to actually have

different outcomes than we currently have.

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: 00:19:32

That's really interesting that you talk a

lot about governance and having the

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specialised area.

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: 00:19:37

I think for most consumers when we think

about sustainability, we might have the

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: 00:19:42

best intentions and we might have what I

would say are bigger aspirations for

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sustainability.

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: 00:19:47

the UK than we feel that our leaders do.

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: 00:19:50

Do you feel there's a disparity there and

do you think that can ever be bridged?

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: 00:19:53

The disparity lies in part in the

different goals government sets within

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their agenda.

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: 00:20:02

And that's really me kind of thinking out

loud.

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: 00:20:05

The government needs to deliver on

economic outcomes, it needs to deliver on

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: 00:20:09

public health outcomes, it needs to

deliver on environmental outcomes.

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: 00:20:14

And what they're trying to do is they're

trying to deliver all that often in one or

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: 00:20:18

two policies, which makes it really

difficult.

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: 00:20:25

They also need to bring together what I

would call public consensus about what do

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: 00:20:32

we define, what do we think is a healthy

diet, what would we say is a sustainable

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: 00:20:37

diet.

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: 00:20:37

And if we would just talk about what good

food means to each one of us, we probably

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: 00:20:43

would have very different views of that.

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: 00:20:45

And that's why it's often really difficult

to bring consensus between these two

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: 00:20:50

things, because there's different opinions

and...

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: 00:20:53

different values associated to different

aspects of the food system.

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: 00:20:58

Yeah, that's amazing.

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: 00:20:59

I will fess up here.

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: 00:21:00

I did completely go off script there

because this is a subject that I'm very

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: 00:21:03

passionate about and could talk about all

day.

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: 00:21:06

So it's really interesting to hear your

thoughts on that.

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: 00:21:08

But if we have any of our listeners who

are at the start of their own personal

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: 00:21:11

sustainability journey, or even if they're

well into it, what's the one piece of

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: 00:21:15

advice do you give them to stick with it

and just to keep going for the good of the

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: 00:21:18

planet, for society, for the economy?

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: 00:21:20

What can they do as an individual?

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: 00:21:21

I think what keeps me going personally is

using creativity and being curious while

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: 00:21:28

also wanting to understand someone else's

position within that.

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: 00:21:34

So it's kind of being empathetic to the

people around you, trying to truly listen

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: 00:21:40

what their needs are and then start from

where their needs sit and where they are

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: 00:21:47

at and start building from there.

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: 00:21:48

Because if you are not...

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: 00:21:51

bringing in the people from the place they

are currently at, it's going to be really

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: 00:21:56

difficult for you to get their support.

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: 00:21:59

And sometimes maybe it isn't about getting

their support, maybe it's about you

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: 00:22:04

supporting them.

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: 00:22:05

Yeah, that's great advice.

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: 00:22:07

And it definitely sounds like, you know,

it's not a one size fits all, which might

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: 00:22:11

be why people think going on this journey

might be difficult.

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: 00:22:13

But actually, when it's more personalised,

you're more connected and probably more

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: 00:22:16

likely to stick to it as well.

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: 00:22:18

As a hospitality person, it's...

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: 00:22:20

It's a beautiful way to connect with

people on a very authentic level.

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: 00:22:25

I've met some of the most interesting

people through this journey and sometimes

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: 00:22:29

they've challenged me, but challenge isn't

a bad thing.

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: 00:22:33

Challenge helps you to grow, to

transition, to change your own perceptions

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: 00:22:37

of what's right and wrong.

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: 00:22:39

Yeah, I think if you're thinking about

sustainability, it's bigger than yourself,

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: 00:22:41

isn't it?

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: 00:22:42

So it's not just about me, me, me.

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: 00:22:44

You are thinking of the planet really and

everyone that's on it.

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: 00:22:47

And it's a beautiful place to...

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: 00:22:49

have a reason to connect because I won't

have all the answers.

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: 00:22:53

Whereas if I bring other people's

knowledge and wisdom in, then I might get

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: 00:22:59

the right answers or might find better

solutions.

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: 00:23:04

Yes, it's time for Put the Copper Down,

Quick Fire Round question time.

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: 00:23:08

The rules of the game, Andrea, is to

answer the questions with one word

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: 00:23:11

answers.

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: 00:23:11

Now we know that one word answers may be

tricky for those in hospitality, so let's

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: 00:23:16

see how you get on.

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: 00:23:17

We'll be judging your answer by speed,

succinctness and perhaps anything

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: 00:23:21

arbitrary we choose to add.

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: 00:23:23

At the end of the season, we will tally up

the scores from each of our guests and the

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: 00:23:27

winner will receive.

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: 00:23:28

Are you ready, Andrea?

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: 00:23:29

Are you ready for what the prize is?

398

: 00:23:31

It's a £10 Amazon voucher.

399

: 00:23:34

So if you are ready, Andrea, let's begin.

400

: 00:23:36

Oh, yes, I'm ready.

401

: 00:23:37

So Andrea, if you were a flavour of ice

cream, what would you be?

402

: 00:23:41

Tutti frutti.

403

: 00:23:42

So thinking of, as an example, Christmas

and Easter, if you could create a new

404

: 00:23:47

holiday, what would it be called?

405

: 00:23:49

World Peace Day.

406

: 00:23:50

What's the most unusual job you can

imagine yourself doing for a day?

407

: 00:23:53

The first thing I was thinking of was

fire, a fire woman.

408

: 00:23:57

What is your go -to karaoke style?

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: 00:23:59

I hate karaoke.

410

: 00:24:01

Boo!

411

: 00:24:03

Do you run hot or cold?

412

: 00:24:05

Hot.

413

: 00:24:06

If you could have dinner with any

fictional character, who would it be?

414

: 00:24:10

Fuhua from...

415

: 00:24:12

the never -ending story.

416

: 00:24:13

Andrea, what's the weirdest talent that

you have that not many people know about?

417

: 00:24:18

I dress my clothes from inside out.

418

: 00:24:28

So if you could go to any place, real or

fictional, where would you go?

419

: 00:24:36

This sounds boring but I would stay at the

Tames.

420

: 00:24:39

So crisps, fried or baked?

421

: 00:24:41

Baked, as a nutritionist.

422

: 00:24:43

If you could switch lives with any

celebrity for a day, who would it be?

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: 00:24:48

Greta Thunberg.

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: 00:24:49

If you had the power to solve one global

issue, what would it be?

425

: 00:24:52

I'd start with world peace, I think all

the others would be easier to solve

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: 00:24:56

afterwards.

427

: 00:24:57

If you could collaborate with any person,

living or dead, on a project, who would it

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: 00:25:02

be?

429

: 00:25:03

I would love to collaborate with George

Orwell.

430

: 00:25:06

I like it.

431

: 00:25:08

Fact or fiction?

432

: 00:25:10

Fiction.

433

: 00:25:11

We need more dreaming.

434

: 00:25:12

Imagine you wake up one day with the

ability to speak every language fluently.

435

: 00:25:16

How would you use this newfound skill?

436

: 00:25:19

To bring people together to overcome

tension and problems.

437

: 00:25:24

If your life had a theme song, Andrea,

that played every time you entered a room,

438

: 00:25:29

what would it be?

439

: 00:25:30

The first one coming to mind is Staying

Alive.

440

: 00:25:33

What is your go -to dance move when no one

is watching?

441

: 00:25:36

The shimmy?

442

: 00:25:37

Beastenders or Coronation Street?

443

: 00:25:40

Holly Ox?

444

: 00:25:41

That's a bit younger, isn't it?

445

: 00:25:42

It's more our generation, to be fair.

446

: 00:25:45

Okay, this is a riddle.

447

: 00:25:47

I have keys but no locks.

448

: 00:25:49

I have space but no room.

449

: 00:25:51

You can enter but you can't go into the...

450

: 00:25:53

What am I?

451

: 00:25:54

A box.

452

: 00:25:55

What has a heart that doesn't beat?

453

: 00:25:58

A clock.

454

: 00:25:59

So your time is up, Andrea, and you made

it through.

455

: 00:26:03

So the answers for the final two questions

were the first one was keyboard.

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: 00:26:06

I got that.

457

: 00:26:07

And the second one was artichoke.

458

: 00:26:09

OK, yeah, that's a good one.

459

: 00:26:10

I didn't get that.

460

: 00:26:11

So how do you think you scored?

461

: 00:26:13

Really poorly.

462

: 00:26:14

I'm not competitive like that.

463

: 00:26:16

I'm the worst person.

464

: 00:26:17

I always want the team to win.

465

: 00:26:19

Oh, well, we're competitive.

466

: 00:26:21

So, Senghor, do you want to tally up those

points?

467

: 00:26:24

I got 16.

468

: 00:26:26

Well, you got 16.

469

: 00:26:27

And, Andrea, you're going to have to stay

tuned to find out at the end of the season

470

: 00:26:31

if you've won our top of the range prize,

which I'm sure you're just dying to have.

471

: 00:26:37

Thank you, Andrea.

472

: 00:26:38

It's been great having you as a guest.

473

: 00:26:40

We know that our listeners will make use

of the experience device that you've

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: 00:26:43

given.

475

: 00:26:44

Thank you also to our listeners for

joining us today.

476

: 00:26:47

Stay tuned for more insightful

conversations here on Talking Hospitality.

477

: 00:26:51

And we'd like to thank our brand partner,

Graphic Kitchen, you our listeners, our

478

: 00:26:55

guests and all of those who have supported

us.

479

: 00:26:57

Please check us out at talkinghospitality

.com for the latest gossip, episodes,

480

: 00:27:01

blogs and courses.

481

: 00:27:03

Wishing you well.

482

: 00:27:04

Thank you all for listening and stay

awesome.

483

: 00:27:13

Thanks for watching!