Why Hiring Older People Can Help Your Business
The episode features a captivating dialogue with Jill Whittaker OBE FCA, a distinguished figure in the hospitality sector and the leader of HIT Training, a company dedicated to enhancing skills within the industry.
Jill's remarkable career trajectory serves as an inspiration, showcasing the diverse pathways available within hospitality. From her early experiences in a prestigious hotel to her extensive background in accountancy and training, she embodies the multifaceted nature of our industry.
Throughout our conversation, Jill emphasises the importance of valuing all roles within hospitality, particularly those traditionally perceived as low-skilled.
She advocates for a rebalancing of perspectives that recognises the vital contributions of every individual, irrespective of their position. This discussion not only highlights Jill's personal achievements but reminds the industry to embrace inclusivity and elevate the status of essential roles, enriching the overall hospitality experience.
We talk OBEs, the differences between young people and people over 50, and how Hospitality employers need to look beyond the wrinkles and numbers, but need to look at the person they are hiring.
Takeaways:
- The podcast marks the commencement of its third season, reflecting its growth from informal beginnings during the lockdown.
- A significant focus will be placed on the importance of valuing all roles within the hospitality sector, not just management positions.
- We believe that recognising the contributions of every employee, regardless of their specific job, is vital for the industry's success.
- The discussion emphasises the necessity of adapting training and development opportunities for various age groups in the workforce.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
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For more information on the topics discussed go to our blogs: https://www.talkinghospitality.com/blog/
Or if that's still not enough, get educated with our Hospitality courses at:
https://www.educatinghospitality.co.uk/
🎧 Tune in to listen to the latest episode from Talking Hospitality and for more touching stories and deep insights into the challenges and triumphs of the hospitality industry.
Transcript
The sun's shining, you know, birds are.
Speaker B:Singing, the weather has turned, spring has sprung and I'm loving it.
Speaker A:Season three, Season three.
Speaker B:I actually can't believe we're doing season three because obviously this started as you and me in lockdown, just messing about on Zoom and making a podcast.
Speaker B:But look at us now, season three.
Speaker A:Thank you, everybody.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:It's looking like it's going to be a good season.
Speaker A:We've got some new kids guests lined up which are all very exciting.
Speaker A:We are here to help the hospitality industry and spread good news as well as top tips.
Speaker A:And we're going to be bringing on guests that can talk about how to recruit properly, best practices.
Speaker B:It's very exciting.
Speaker B:Very exciting indeed.
Speaker A:I think we're going to start our.
Speaker C:New series, Timothy Put the Catalda On.
Speaker B:Welcome to Timothy Put the Katel on, where I, Sarah Cattell, and my co host, Timothy R Andrews are talking hospitality, bringing you solutions to the issues we are facing and inspirational stories from the incredible people who make up our hospitality industry family.
Speaker B:Today we are delighted to welcome our guest, Jill Whittaker, who is the gaffer at hospitality training company hiit Training.
Speaker B:Welcome, Jill.
Speaker A:Hello, Jill.
Speaker A:Hi.
Speaker C:How you doing?
Speaker B:How are.
Speaker C:Oh, good, thank you.
Speaker C:I'm having a bit of a glorious day.
Speaker C:As you say, the sunshine makes a big difference, doesn't it?
Speaker C:It does.
Speaker C:Lovely.
Speaker C:And when I finish talking to you two, I'm going to go and have a nice swim in the sea.
Speaker B:That's incredible because we know where you are.
Speaker B:You're on the south coast.
Speaker B:Because it says it on your mug, Jill.
Speaker C:It does, it does.
Speaker C:I'm on the south coast.
Speaker C:I'm the queen of shore and by sea.
Speaker B:I need to ask you what's in your mug?
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's a fine single malt.
Speaker C:No, it's actually tea.
Speaker C:I've got a.
Speaker C:It's a very specific tea.
Speaker C:It's a decaffeinated Yorkshire tea with oat milk.
Speaker B:I switched over to cold tea, which I know just sounds rubbish, doesn't it?
Speaker B:But it's actually kind of nice.
Speaker C:I thought cold tea was what happens when you forgot you've got a cup of tea on your desk.
Speaker B:It is also nut.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And now they charge you extra for it, Jill.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker A:So I've got cold tea at least four times a day.
Speaker A:So does that mean I'm sitting on a gold mine?
Speaker B:Quite literally.
Speaker A:God, yeah.
Speaker A:I've been heating up in the microwave and actually I could just be vlogging.
Speaker B:You could just be selling it to me, because clearly I'm the mug who's going to buy it.
Speaker A:Back to the show.
Speaker B:Jill Whittaker.
Speaker B:O, B E.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:I want to keep saying it because it sounds so good and it sounds so good because it is so well deserved.
Speaker C:Thank you very much.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's taken me nearly 24 years to become an overnight success and I'm.
Speaker C:I'm delighted.
Speaker C:I'm absolutely delighted.
Speaker C:You know.
Speaker C:You know, the thing that really got me is that obviously, originally I got a letter from the Queen and, bless her, she's no longer with us, and I'm not a great royalist at all, I never have been.
Speaker C:However, when you get a letter from the Queen that says, well, actually, it was a letter from Boris, right, there's quite an histoire here, because the letter from Boris saying, the Queen's asked me to write to you to see if you'd accept an obe.
Speaker C:And I thought, fantastic.
Speaker C:And then subsequently, I got a lovely letter from Nadine Sahawi, who was, at that point in time, a minister.
Speaker C:That one is going to definitely get framed and go into possibly my bathroom.
Speaker C:So, yeah, so that was all lovely.
Speaker C:Through the post, I received a cylindrical postal thingies.
Speaker C:Anyway, inside it is a great big certificate and it's signed by the Queen.
Speaker C:So even though she's.
Speaker C:She's gone, she.
Speaker C:She'd signed my certificate before she went.
Speaker C:I was really quite touched by that.
Speaker C:It's really quite touched.
Speaker C:But, yeah, as I say, it's.
Speaker C:It's really nice.
Speaker C:And to have that recognition that I've done something that wasn't purely just for my own benefit, that it's been useful to society as well.
Speaker C:So it's the services to apprenticeships and, yeah, I'm really, really pleased with it.
Speaker C:So thank you.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker B:So, Jill, to someone in hospitality, your CV is breathtakingly brilliant.
Speaker B:And to someone outside of the industry, it might actually be hugely surprising, because you take every stereotype of this industry being low skilled and you flip it on its head, it's amazing.
Speaker B:So give us a whirlwind tour of how you got to where you are now.
Speaker C:Oh, my word.
Speaker C:How long have you got?
Speaker C:I'll go as fast as I can go.
Speaker C:So, when I was about 15, I used to babysit for the general manager of the Belfry Hotel.
Speaker C:She's near Sutton Coalfield.
Speaker C:People have heard of it because that's where the golf happens.
Speaker C:And he's basically said to me one day, we need more staff, can you come and work for us?
Speaker C:So I was Doing my GCSE at the time.
Speaker C:Absolutely fantastic.
Speaker C:So I started off there waitressing When I was 18, I was in the bar at weekends I was working as grill chef on breakfasts and the like.
Speaker C:Then they opened a nightclub.
Speaker C:So I worked there as well.
Speaker C:While I was doing all of that, you know, that.
Speaker C:That basically for the next five years or so, whilst doing GCSE A levels and then then do my accountancy qualifications, I worked in hospitality and I absolutely loved it.
Speaker C:Always had a real passion for it.
Speaker C:Always have had.
Speaker C:And then I qualified as an accountant.
Speaker C:So that off I went to do lots of audits and things like that.
Speaker C:Very dull.
Speaker C:But what it does do for you is you get to see all sorts of businesses and I again, naturally gravitated back to the hospitality sector.
Speaker C:So I was put into a group, the accountancy firm that I work for, who specialized in hospitality and brewing.
Speaker C:So I did all the audits on the brewer.
Speaker C:I was in Birmingham, you can probably tell from my accent I've got a bit of residual Birmingham hanging around in there.
Speaker C:So, yeah, so I worked in all the breweries and the hotel groups and not as a.
Speaker C:As a cooker or waiter any longer, but, you know, in that no support functions.
Speaker C:Absolutely loved it.
Speaker C:Then I went off overseas and worked overseas for various various companies for a while, came back to the UK and just.
Speaker C:I got a job in a bank.
Speaker C:I absolutely hated it.
Speaker C:It was just duller than dishwater.
Speaker C:So I went back to the dishwater, basically and got a job in French ski resort as a cook and did a season there, cooking, and then went and worked and managed a bar for a season and then moved into a hotel and went and worked in the hotel doing a bit of everything.
Speaker C:I was the only person who spoke both English and French, which was handy.
Speaker C:So if somebody didn't turn up, I did whatever their job was and when the manager went away because I could speak both languages, then I just took on whatever it was that he needed me to do for him.
Speaker C:So I did that for another couple of years, which is great fun.
Speaker C:This is going to sound show offy.
Speaker C:I'm not being show offy.
Speaker C:It was very much done on a budget, but then I sailed to Australia.
Speaker C:So I got on a yacht and basically sailed to Australia with two other people, one of whom is now my husband.
Speaker C:I met him on the boat in the French canals, which we took down through the canals and then across the Atlantic and across the Pacific.
Speaker C:So I did that, got back to the UK and did lots of accountancy kind of work.
Speaker C:And eventually I got approached about a job with a training company and it was a hospitality training company.
Speaker C:So it really worked for me.
Speaker C:Obviously with that passion for the industry that I've always had, I thought, fantastic, I can apply all sorts of skills to this and really help businesses to, you know, up their skills level and become more efficient as businesses.
Speaker C:So that's what I did.
Speaker C:I went and worked there.
Speaker C: That was: Speaker C: Yeah, we started HIIT in: Speaker C:It's been fantastic.
Speaker C:It's been an absolute roller coaster and joyous and I.
Speaker C:The joy for me, you know, this wonderful industry that we all live and breathe, just being able to help everybody in it get better and, you know, for their staff to raise their skills and to lift people out of poverty and everything from entry level, basic stuff, dead basic skills all the way through to.
Speaker C:We now have a relationship with a university and we can go all the way up to level 7 degree apprenticeships with a Masters.
Speaker C:Was that quick enough?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:If it had been any quicker, I think you'd have, you'd have done yourself down.
Speaker A:It's interesting that you said about the poverty element because Sarah and I both worked on a school project called Pan Out.
Speaker A:One of the things that was clearly lacking and it tend to be from poorer families that we were involved in was the kids self belief that they could achieve anything.
Speaker A:And it's the training them in the skills or showing them that they can achieve things that radically transform some of them.
Speaker A:Some of them actually went into hospitality.
Speaker A:But you could see this sort of, this moment where something shifted and I thought we could do that.
Speaker A:Providing skills to people and giving them access, which is what you do, is a wonderful thing because it really changes people's lives.
Speaker C:Well, it gives them a choice.
Speaker C:I'm absolutely a great believer that if the job that you're doing rings your bell and you love it and stick with it and be the best you can be in that job, it's not all about getting to the next level.
Speaker C:If management is your bag, brilliant, but actually if you're a fantastic practitioner in whatever you do and whether that's in the kitchens or whether it's front of house, whatever your role is, if you enjoy being a practitioner and you're brilliant at it, well, just be as brilliant at it as you can be.
Speaker C:It shouldn't always be the conversation about getting to the next level, getting into Management, getting into senior management, because, you know, that's a skill set in and of itself and it's not necessarily for everybody.
Speaker C:What's going to become more important as technology develops are those roles that can't be done by a computer.
Speaker C:You know, absolutely.
Speaker C:Some of that stuff can't be done.
Speaker C:You can automate up to a point, but actually, what we should be really valuing, really, really valuing, is those housekeepers who, you know, who really look after us when we.
Speaker C:When we're staying in the hotels, we should be really valuing that, you know, the kitchen porter who, you know, you can't automate that job.
Speaker C:All right, you've got a great big plunge machine, fine, you know, you've got all that, but you can't automate that, his role or her role.
Speaker C:That's really, really important.
Speaker C:So we need to have a rebalancing, to my mind, of what we value and what we value and what we pay for, rather than keep paying lots and lots and lots for technology solutions.
Speaker C:They should be getting cheaper so we can pay more to the humans who do the essential roles.
Speaker C:And we should value them all.
Speaker C:We absolutely should.
Speaker C:And I just think that rebalancing needs to happen sooner rather than later.
Speaker B:You're right, because I can't imagine a time when there's going to be a robot going into a hotel room folding a towel into a swan.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:We need to revalue those skills.
Speaker C:The housekeeper is one that I always pull up whenever I'm speaking to whoever the Skills Minister is.
Speaker C:In 20 odd years, I've.
Speaker C:I've seen quite a few of those people and, you know, when they talk about level two skills as being low skills, I get really cross because, you know, it's really important that people start their career somewhere but actually master it.
Speaker C:And if, if housekeeping is your thing and you want to back to that being the best, then you should be able to be the best.
Speaker C:And, yeah, you talk to skills, so they're always trying to talk about, you know, level three is what you're aiming for.
Speaker C:It's like.
Speaker C:Well, not really, no.
Speaker C:You know, level two skill performs really well professionally, is incredibly valuable.
Speaker C:So, yeah, that rebalance has got to happen.
Speaker C:It's got to happen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I know kitchen porters that have been doing it for 25 years and they're very happy where they are.
Speaker A:They have absolutely no desire to be anywhere else.
Speaker A:It's the perfect job for them.
Speaker A:And, you know, a kitchen porter can make or break a kitchen.
Speaker B:The most important person in that kitchen.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Have you having anything at all to do with hospitality rising?
Speaker A:Yeah, brilliant organization actually coming on as well in a couple of weeks time.
Speaker A:So look out for that because I'm.
Speaker C:I'm, I'm, I've been supporter of that since the get go and I've been, you know, doing a little bit of work with Mark and helping, helping out there from the skills perspective, skills and recruitment perspective, basically the traction is fantastic.
Speaker C:What it's doing is it's changing the mindset of young people about what the industry can do for them.
Speaker C:You know, rise fast, work young.
Speaker C:What a great, what a great phrase.
Speaker C:You know, you can rise as fast as you like, but if you want to invest in your own skills at the same time, you can, you can get there even quicker, you know, and for a lot of young people that's really important.
Speaker C:They haven't got forever hanging around.
Speaker C:They want it, want it now, you know, they're not people who can sit around and think, well, you know, in two years time, in three years time, they're thinking, yeah, I quite.
Speaker C:Actually my supervisor is pretty good, but I reckon I could do that job.
Speaker C:I wonder how fast I can get to that position, you know, and that's what we've got to facilitate for people.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:It's like that is the essence of, that's one of the great things about hospitality is that that you can come in and you can go get promoted really quick.
Speaker A:You've got the right attitude, you get money quicker, you can go to different venues, sorry, employers, but you can go abroad.
Speaker A:I mean, honestly, you can make a lot of money out of hospitality.
Speaker C:I mean, fantastic clients who are really, really good at training up their stuff.
Speaker C:Fantastic.
Speaker C:They're brilliant and they recognize that they are probably training their staff up to go and work somewhere else because they've got limited roles, you know, and there's only so many superb supervisors you need.
Speaker C:You know, there are only so many head housekeepers you need and then if everyone's aspiring to that, they're going to go work somewhere else.
Speaker B:You know, I think realising that someone is going to move on is really important and you should still inspire them to do their best work when they're with you because that's the best leadership there is and that's the best gift you can give to your employee.
Speaker C:They're doing the right thing for the whole industry as well.
Speaker C:So that's a really positive thing and it's interesting, that thing about wanting it now and wanting it fast.
Speaker C:You've got that with it, with the younger people, so, you know, you're under 25s, they, they're thinking like that, let's move, come on.
Speaker C:Bang, bang, bang.
Speaker C:But you're over 50s, think the same as well, you know, and being in that elite little group myself, I can tell you that if somebody says to me, it's going to take two years for you to train up for this job, I'd be like, you know what?
Speaker C:I'm not sure I've got two years to invest because I want it sooner.
Speaker C:And the reason I want it sooner is because, well, I'm thinking perhaps my working life's got another 15, 20 years.
Speaker C:I don't want to be spending a whole two years of that training up to do my job.
Speaker C:How can I do this faster pace?
Speaker C:How can I get this moving faster?
Speaker C:And how can this be for me and not just for the 16 and 17 year olds?
Speaker C:How, how can that happen?
Speaker C:And I think, you know, it's interesting that the government seems to have picked up on this, this massive aging workforce which we have.
Speaker C:There was all these people who've retired early through Covid.
Speaker C:So it's really time to get moving and thinking, well, you know, all right, we want to attract the youngsters.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Of course we do.
Speaker C:What about that workforce of people who've got a life of lived experience behind them and have still got so much to give?
Speaker B:It's a really important point that you're making, Jill, is about these people with lived life experience because we need to have in our industry, across our workforces, this kind of mixture of age groups.
Speaker C:My uncle was a great example of this.
Speaker C:He was a car salesman all his life.
Speaker C:And when he got to about 60, he decided to retire from that.
Speaker C:It was too much.
Speaker C:And he got the job as the doorman at the Hilton Metropole in Birmingham.
Speaker C:And he was about 6 foot 4 with his top hat.
Speaker C:He was over 7 foot, so his top hat and tails.
Speaker C:And he was a charming gentleman.
Speaker C:It's funny, I mean, he's been dead a few years now, but when I talk to people, we use the Hilton in Birmingham for events and things.
Speaker C:When I talk to the GM said, they all remember Derek because he was a character.
Speaker C:He was an older guy, he was charming.
Speaker C:He would flirt with anybody.
Speaker C:It didn't matter whether you were 14 or whether you were 75.
Speaker C:And he always had a wink and a smile and everyone remembers him.
Speaker C:And I recognize, of course, not everyone can go be a doorman, a four star, but there are jobs.
Speaker C:There are jobs for people who want them that fit in around their lifestyles that perhaps aren't as taxing as something they might have done in the past.
Speaker C:Or maybe they are.
Speaker C:We've got one apprentice at the moment, a chef apprentice, who was a lawyer all his working life.
Speaker C:And when his parents passed away, he finally decided that actually he didn't ever wanted to be a lawyer.
Speaker C:It was something he'd done to make his parents proud of him and he packed it in and now he's training to be a chef.
Speaker C:He's a first commie in a kitchen.
Speaker C:He could not be happier.
Speaker C:But you can't homogenize people.
Speaker C:The over 50s are as different as the under 18s.
Speaker C:There's not one size fits all.
Speaker C:You won't encourage all of them by saying, come to us and.
Speaker C:And you can do lots of skills, you have a new life and all of that.
Speaker C:You won't encourage them all by that.
Speaker C:Some of them will be encouraged by actually, you know, three days a week would suit me.
Speaker C:That'd be nice.
Speaker C:Or what about some seasonal work?
Speaker C:That'd be nice.
Speaker C:And then I can go and spend my winters out in the French Alps or whatever it is that I want to do in my semi retirement.
Speaker C:There's going to be a different answer for everybody.
Speaker C:I think the best thing that employers can do is just open their eyes to the human and stop seeing the wrinkles.
Speaker C:So every person under the age of 18, every person over the age of 50, everybody in between, what is it that is going to bring them into your workplace?
Speaker C:What is it that's going to encourage them to want to work with you as a brand, be part of your work, family?
Speaker C:What is it and what is it about them that you need those three people who've come for that job that you desperately need to fill?
Speaker C:You're not looking at them and saying, oh, well, I'm not so sure about that one because he's a bit young.
Speaker C:I'm not so sure about that one because he's a bit old.
Speaker C:I'm not sure about the middle one because she might be the age where she's going to go off a maternity leave.
Speaker C:Let's leave all that to one side.
Speaker C:Let's just interview the human, forget about their age groups.
Speaker A:And, you know, also, if you're a person who's not done yet, shall we say, and that you'd be a bit scared of.
Speaker A:Oh, I've only got 10, 15 years of left.
Speaker A:Well, 10 or 15 years is a long time.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I was having this conversation with Sandra Kelly, our internal development at UK Hospitality Fantastic woman the other day, you know, the, the over 50s and what is it that that might encourage them into, into learning and development and it's like, for goodness sake, they're all different, they're all different.
Speaker C:So do.
Speaker C:So different things are going to encourage different people.
Speaker C:And some people, you know, there's some people in their 60s and 70s who could really, you know, put, you know, put them in a race against a 40 year old and they're going to win.
Speaker C:You know, there are other people for whom perhaps the bodies are a bit more tired.
Speaker C:They've done a different type of role in their lives.
Speaker C:I've got one lovely client who always says, I don't care how old you are, it doesn't matter to me.
Speaker C:When you come for the job, they recruit for that skill set that they need.
Speaker C:But that attitude we can train your skills in, that's not an issue.
Speaker C:Come to me with the right attitude, a smile on your face and an ethic that says, I'm going to work hard while I'm with you and we will have a job for you.
Speaker B:You could be 102 and behaving like a stroppy 8 year old.
Speaker B:That wouldn't be the right attitude at all.
Speaker B:Or you can be, you know, 21, fresh out of uni or even just fresh out of College at 18 and have the right can do attitude and you can do anything.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker C:It's been lovely, actually.
Speaker C:I've had a really lovely chat.
Speaker C:I've enjoyed it.
Speaker C:It's been nice talking to both of you.
Speaker A:Likewise.
Speaker A:You're not finished yet though, Jill.
Speaker C:Aren't I?
Speaker B:Put the cuppa down.
Speaker B:Question time.
Speaker A:This is what we call the Quick Fire round, so we can ask you some questions.
Speaker A:So Sarah and I will alternate the questions and then you've got to answer the first thing that comes into your mind.
Speaker B:If you could spend a day in someone else's shoes, whose would they be and why?
Speaker C:Elvis Presley, because I just like to see what his world was like.
Speaker C:It must have been quite extraordinary.
Speaker A:What's the one thing that you would like to change about yourself?
Speaker C:I haven't got anything I'd like to change about myself.
Speaker C:Tim, are you religious?
Speaker B:So are you religious or spiritual?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker A:What is your favorite summer activity?
Speaker C:I love swimming in the sea.
Speaker C:I love sailing as well.
Speaker B:What is one of your weird quirks?
Speaker C:Oh, God, one of them.
Speaker C:Which one to choose.
Speaker A:If you could talk to the President, what would you talk about?
Speaker C:I talk about music and see what sort of music he likes.
Speaker C:I'd like to see what sort of bloke he is, really.
Speaker C:I mean, I doubt we'd share a taste in music, but we might, you know.
Speaker C:Who knows?
Speaker C:He might love the Sex Pistols.
Speaker B:What is your least favourite beverage?
Speaker C:Jagermeister.
Speaker A:Is a thumb.
Speaker A:A finger?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:It's a thumb, Tim.
Speaker B:Jill, what secret would you like to tell me?
Speaker C:What makes you think I've got a secret?
Speaker A:Hot dogs.
Speaker A:Ketchup or mustard?
Speaker C:Sauerkraut.
Speaker A:What'd you call me?
Speaker C:Sauerkraut.
Speaker C:Mustard and ketchup.
Speaker C:Bring it on.
Speaker C:Why limit yourself?
Speaker C:Life is too short.
Speaker B:Cocktails in glasses or jam jars?
Speaker C:Oh, good God.
Speaker C:Glasses.
Speaker C:What's wrong with you people?
Speaker A:Is vegan cheese cheese?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Do yellow Smarties taste different to other Smarties?
Speaker B:Or the blue ones better?
Speaker C:No, they all taste exactly the same, Sarah.
Speaker B:Okay, so our time has come to an end, which is such a shame because we've had so much fun.
Speaker B:But thank you so much, Jill.
Speaker B:You've been an incredible guest and I want to speak to you again very soon.
Speaker C:Lovely.
Speaker C:Thank you so much.
Speaker C:It's been really great to see both of you.
Speaker C:And, yeah, let's get together soon.
Speaker A:You're such a joy to talk to and your energy, and good luck with everything.
Speaker A:And thank you for what you've been doing for our industry as well.
Speaker A:It's a really good job.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker C:You are very welcome, mate.
Speaker C:And just remember, a thumb is just a thumb.
Speaker C:Timothy, put the kata.
Speaker C:No, it's a thumb, Tim.
Speaker C:Goodness sake, what's up with you?
Speaker C:Honestly, Daft as a brush.
