How Do You Make a Podcast?

Sarah Kettel: 00:00:00

You have to be quite brave to put your voice out there.

Like, even if you've got, you know, if you're a teenager with a social media account now, someone's going to find it and somebody might, you know, post some abuse about something that you posted, which is kind of terrifying when you think about the world we live in, where everyone has access to.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:00:17

You have a reason for doing your podcast. If it's just to have a conversation with somebody, that's just not going to get very well far.

And it's something like 95% of podcasts don't go beyond episode four. And there's a reason for that, and that is because people get bored. There's a lot of effort put into it. They realize that people aren't listening.

And actually, unless you planned it, people forget why they did it in the first place. They run out of things to talk about.

Sarah Kettel: 00:00:50

Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of Talking Hospitality with me, Sarah Kettel

Phil Street: 00:00:55

and me, Phil Street. Can you believe that? And why is this episode so special, I hear you ask. Well, not many podcasts make it to 50 episodes, but this one has.

Sarah Kettel: 00:01:12

It started as a lockdown project for a giggle between two industry friends, but today we sit here in the company of the great and the good of hospitality podcasters. And from what Phil rightly describes, this is the greatest industry in the world.

Phil Street: 00:01:24

Ah, you've done your research, I see.

Sarah Kettel: 00:01:27

Yeah, I've heard you.

Phil Street: 00:01:29

So today we're going to tell you what it takes to start your own podcast with advice from our magnificent guests. So I suppose we should just get on and meet them.

Sarah Kettel: 00:01:39

Great stuff.

Phil Street: 00:01:40

We have Michelle Righini, is that correct?

Shell Righini: 00:01:44

That is correct, yes. If I was in a court of law, but most people call me Shell.

Phil Street: 00:01:49

Fantastic.

And you are the founder and host of We Recovered Loudly, a podcast that is shaking up conversations about addiction recovery and drinking cultures in the hospitality industry. And Michelle is also the only person here today to have appeared on Talking Hospitality three times, surely enough.

Shell Righini: 00:02:08

It's a bit embarrassing, isn't it?

Timothy R Andrews: 00:02:10

I'm really worried about that.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:02:11

Well, thanks.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:02:12

Thanks.

Shell Righini: 00:02:12

Shell embarrassed me saying yes to everything.

Sarah Kettel: 00:02:19

You guys are trying to say. Well, I'm a bit starstruck, I'll be honest, so. But I'll try and keep it profess. Next up, we've got Michael Tingsager. Am I saying that right, Michael?

Michael Tingsager: 00:02:33

Yeah, that's very good.

Shell Righini: 00:02:33

Very good.

Michael Tingsager: 00:02:34

For my first try, that's like, I'm Danish originally, and even Danish people can't get that surname right. So you did really well.

Sarah Kettel: 00:02:41

Okay, I will consider myself fluent. Fantastic.

Michael is the founder of and the host of Hospitality Mavericks, showcasing the real mavericks of our industry who are doing good and inspiring things and impressing us all with their work.

Phil Street: 00:02:53

Yeah. Next up, we have Mark McCullough, aka Mark MC, the Godfather, the Master of Disaster, and any other nickname you kind of care to mention.

The founder and host of Supersonic Marketing, the one that kind of probably started it all, to be honest. And a podcast that is dedicated to helping you take your food brand Supersonic. Mark, welcome.

Mark McCulloch: 00:03:17

Hello. Thanks for having me. Nice to see everyone.

Sarah Kettel: 00:03:20

Me too. You too.

Kieron Bailey: 00:03:21

I'm going to go and change Mark's Wikipedia entry now. As the founder of podcasts, just so we're all.

Mark McCulloch: 00:03:28

I think just on that note, there was someone before, which was Propel, actually. So Propel did a little sort of podcast known again, sort of, you know, podcasting started and everyone went, wow.

And then it had a massive dip and everyone was sort of slagging it off. And then it can started again. It was just kind of in the dip and everyone was thinking it was passing.

So I need to say shout out to Propel and James Hakin for doing that. I'm sure they did it first, so. Yeah, well done to them.

Phil Street: 00:04:01

Okay, so you're the mini Godfather, then.

Mark McCulloch: 00:04:03

Well, I'll take it. I'll take the. You know, it's like, who invented the phone? Who invented the radio? And there's all these arguments.

So obviously Scotland invents everything.

Kieron Bailey: 00:04:10

He's not calling him the Godfather. Why are we not calling him his godfather?

Michael Tingsager: 00:04:13

Yeah, I call him the podmother.

Kieron Bailey: 00:04:19

Come on, big faster.

Mark McCulloch: 00:04:20

There we go. Do that.

Michael Tingsager: 00:04:22

Brilliant.

Sarah Kettel: 00:04:25

Same gig.

Okay, so next we've got Tracey, Rashid, Tracy, Keiki Rashid is on the panel of hosts for Talking Hospitality and is a cake artist sharing her wisdom, all things business and bakery. Hi, Tracey.

Tracey Rashid: 00:04:40

Hi, Sarah. I was gonna say thank you for having me, but I guess I had to be here. Really.

Sarah Kettel: 00:04:47

The obligation was tr. It's like if you go into work every day and someone goes, welcome back. It's like, I have to be here.

Tracey Rashid: 00:04:55

With a wonderful day.

Phil Street: 00:05:00

Yes.

And then, well, and then we got my old mate Kieran Bailey, an impassioned industry leader, trainer, and speaker who is about to launch his own podcast called People on Purpose. Look out for that. I'm sure we'll talk about that later. How are you, my friend?

Kieron Bailey: 00:05:15

Philip? I'm fabulous. I'm in the company of amazing people. Michelle looks fabulous. And me outfit. You look like you barely made the effort.

But everybody else Very, very standard. Lovely today.

Sarah Kettel: 00:05:28

Thanks for that, Kieran. I feel better now. And last but not least, Timothy R. Andrews, my dear friend and the host and co founder of this here podcast, Talking Hospitality.

Tim is an industry recruiter, fountain of knowledge collector and knower of people, and a general all round awesome guy. Hi, Tim.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:05:48

Hello. Thank you very much. Can't really follow that up much, but thank you everybody for joining us today. And fits to Phil and Sarah for doing the hosting.

Will I be saying that at the end? We'll find out, won't we?

Sarah Kettel: 00:05:59

Well, a huge wel to everyone, obviously. Welcome to the show. So let's get stuck in.

Phil Street: 00:06:11

Excellent. So you want to start a podcast. There's a bit more to it than just chatting away into a mic.

Although you probably wouldn't think that if you'd just listen to my show. But the good news is we are going to demystify all of this for you with a guide to the podcasting nuts and bolts.

Sarah Kettel: 00:06:27

Now actually, I'm going to learn something here as well, because when we started Talking Hospitality, I was just Chatty Betty over here. While Tim is the hero and he made it all happen. I got all those recordings out there into the world.

So, Tim, tell us about all those things that no one thinks about when they're making a podcast a reality.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:06:46

Well, I think the first thing is I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I still don't really know what I'm doing, but it just seems to have landed. But you've got.

I think the first thing to do is anybody wants to do podcasts. A lot of people think it's easy.

They think, oh, you know, we'll get a microphone and we'll riff and that'll be the end of it and everybody will listen. Well, I've got news for anybody that thinks that unless you're famous already, probably no one's going to listen at the beginning.

That's really important for people to realize because it is. All the most spontaneous podcasts that we listen to are actually not often the most prepared.

They're often scripted or they've got a baseline to follow. And there's a lot of hard work that goes beyond that. So the first thing is have a reason for doing your podcast.

If it's just to have a conversation with somebody, that's just not going to get very far. And there's something like 95% of podcasts don't go beyond episode four. And there's a reason for that, and that is because people get bored.

They There's a lot of effort put into it. They realize that people aren't listening. And actually, unless you planned it, people forget why they did it in the first place.

They run out of things to talk about. So number one is, know why you're doing it. Number two, have fun doing it because it can take over your life. Particularly when you start doing the ed.

If you're starting off and you're doing the editing yourself and you're doing the marketing yourself and you're doing the script is a lot of hard work and you need to put time in the diary. So, for example, when we first started, to be honest, we didn't edit, did we, Sarah, at the beginning?

So anybody listens to our first two episodes will know that we didn't even have a name. And then we realized episode three, where we had a guest on, we had to call ourselves something, so we didn't.

Sarah Kettel: 00:08:29

Even introduce ourselves in the first one.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:08:31

No one knew who it was, say who we were. And so the prep. The prep is really important, particularly if you've got guests on. You need to have an idea of why you're going to get them on.

Otherwise one or two things will happen. Well, a number of things can happen. You can have a guess. It will just run away with the show and not really give you any content.

You could have a guess that just doesn't answer anything or just one word answers. And if you haven't got prep, where do you take that? Pardon?

Sarah Kettel: 00:09:04

A Meg Ryan.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:09:06

Yes, a Meg Ryan Aki interview where.

Sarah Kettel: 00:09:09

She just answered with yes or no. Well, it wasn't great tv.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:09:14

Remain nameless. Who actually had a panic attack after the first question and then sort of ran off, didn't they? Sort of through the interview. Yeah.

And that was kind of awkward. Had we not prepped, that would have been more awkward, I think.

And I thought the third thing is, yeah, you've got to have fun doing it because it takes over. And the third thing is be prepared to put the effort in because it is hard. Like I said, it's hard work in terms of nuts and bolts.

You've got to think about where. Who your listeners are.

I think the biggest challenge when I speak to people is when they try and set up a podcast, is they think they can do a podcast for everyone. And you can't speak the language for everybody. You just can't.

So you've got to choose your niche, choose who you want to speak to, because that dictates the language that you use in the podcast.

And that's really Important because that starts part of your character, the podcast and how, and the guests that you have on, the things that you're trying to achieve with it. And it's really, really important to think about that.

So, for example, when we within hospitality sort of been in the industry for at least 10, 15 years in a leadership role who have got, you know, middle aged British, perhaps some hotel backgrounds, but we have like what, 25% of audiences from the US so we haven't excluded anybody from listening to it by having a niche, but we have a voice of who we're speaking to when we do this. And I think that's, that's some advice that I'd give to somebody as well.

Sarah Kettel: 00:10:46

I think. Tim. Talking about platforms. So recording is easy, right? You can record into your computer, your iPhone.

You've got like an actual recording of what you've just said, what you've just recorded. But we're not doing that today. We're using a platform specifically. And that platform, I know, makes it easier to make that podcast available.

And you just said about, about 25% of the listeners of Talking Hospitality are in the U.S. has anyone else here experienced listeners from around the world where they didn't expect to pick up listeners?

Kieron Bailey: 00:11:21

I had a fellow in Uganda check me out, which kind of believed in water a little bit, to be fair. I just think we quite like the Kai, to be fair. And there was a tone and voice that screamed out to him, nobody else in the gander picking up.

So he told his friends that nobody else paid attention. So it speaks for the good people that he found out. But that one fella, he kept coming back. So I'm well on board.

Mark McCulloch: 00:11:42

In the early days, like it was a lot less competition, right? There's a lot fewer podcasts out there.

So yeah, it was things like you were, you know, number three in Belgium and you know, number 20 in this Scandinavia and things like that. That was all really cool. But I mean it was based off a super low numbers at the time. It wasn't very mature.

I mean, I'm talking eight, nine years ago, something like that. But. But yeah, I never really.

I guess some of the information that you're getting through as well, you know, could be due to VPNs and you know, all these kind of things as well.

So it can maybe not be as clear as you think where you go, oh my God, right, we're going to do a tour in the US because 25 and you know, it might be you and a couple of people in their dog because you know, it's some other reason. So yeah, I mean it's usually fairly spread equally amongst pockets of English speaking countries.

And I mean, you know, you don't tend to be big in France if you're, you know, speaking English. Really seems to be.

Michael Tingsager: 00:12:43

I think, I think, I think I, I totally agree with Mark. Like in the beginning you're like totally, you know, excited about.

Because I started around the same, exactly the same week as Mark and we didn't know we met each other a week after and then we both launched a podcast in a co working space in Brighton.

But I also remember like on the business and entrepreneur list in countries like number two or three, which would be totally impossible today to get up there. And then, you know, the amount of hospitality podcasts there is today, I don't even have the number anymore. Probably approaching hundreds. So.

Yeah, but I mean my first really, you know, person that reached out was from Costa Rica. In the jungle of Costa Rica there was this guy that's been listening to the show.

He ended up getting on the show as well because he ran a little restaurant in the jungle and he got some kind of advice conversations. I think it was Friska, the founder. Friska Griff said something and he implemented that and he was so grateful for that little bit of advice.

So that was like I never thought I would touch somebody in Costa Rica running a restaurant in the jungle, you know. So that was quite, quite cute experience.

Mark McCulloch: 00:13:53

You should never touch your guests, by the way. That just, just been like unless there's consent, you know. So yeah, don't, don't be groping with the guests. I think it's a big headline for today.

Sarah Kettel: 00:14:08

Why do you think we're online, Mark?

Kieron Bailey: 00:14:11

Why should. So what we're doing now is just starting to build a list of do's and don'ts.

And rule number one, do not touch people unless they consented into his signature.

Sarah Kettel: 00:14:24

I'm writing these down, Kieran, by the way. We'll publish this with the do's and don't start.

Tracey Rashid: 00:14:28

Yeah.

Sarah Kettel: 00:14:30

But Tim, tell us about editing because editing is something that sounds easy and really isn't.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:14:37

I hate editing. I'm not gonna lie. I don't, I don't have a very good attention span generally.

But when we first started to record for an hour and then try and edit for us, we wanted to have about a 20, 20 minute program, right. So we started recording our interviews and then cutting it down.

And it would take me eight hours to edit one podcast, deleting every swear word, particularly in hospitality because my mum listens, like I said. And it was. It would take a long time. This is before AI came in as well. AI has changed a lot of that, to be fair. However, at the time.

And this is only: 2020

So they come in a bit to keep for listeners. You've got to have the story consistent so you. If you jump too much, people can't keep track of you.

So then you'd have to drag bits in and move it around. But the joy of it, what I will say is the joy of editing is the story creation from that.

So I used to love the fact that we'd have a whole conversation and we could turn it into a bit of a story and turn it into always. Oh, I found that at the end of that a really great experience because you go like, look, that's what I've created. Like.

And sometimes you could put context to the conversation that wasn't there in the conversation, just by editing. I mean, I think the one time that I decided I. I need to get someone else to do editing was we had Jill Whittaker on and she.

We straddled her episode and it was over two years, two years recording. So we needed to combine them. And this, this is exclusive. And one of our. I can't remember which one of you two couldn't make the.

The actual second episode. So then we. We then got you to do responses to it over the top of it. So it looked like you were there for the second episode.

And then we merged it and you wouldn't know that that was two different two years difference because, you know, through the editing, I mean, it did take me 16 hours and a lot of caffeine and swear words, I think. And I was.

Tracey Rashid: 00:16:57

There was Quite a few WhatsApp messages that came through while he was.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:17:00

I like to outsource it now and then I outsource it to Tracy so she can tell how much she enjoyed that. And then we ended up.

Tracey Rashid: 00:17:07

It was. Yeah. So I saw how stressed Timothy would get sometimes. So I actually quite like editing. I do it for my own business. I thought, let me give it a try.

As a whole, it's not so bad. But like Timothy said, it's the consistency. It's making sure you've got that structure, that story. It's also making sure you've got your gaps.

If you're having any jingles or any adverts and things like that and making sure it's the right time. I did or we did have a guest on that. There was so many "Um"s, it was almost impossible to take some out of his face.

Like you know exactly what I'm talking about. It was quite difficult.

Phil Street: 00:17:45

Sorry about that.

Tracey Rashid: 00:17:46

Again, slightly a feel since. Never mind. And sometimes with multiple guests as well because people talk over each other.

So you want to get everything in but it's how sometimes it's no longer relevant by the time the first person's finished what they've said.

So it's kind of like really having to listen, go back and listen, go back, can listen to make sure it actually makes sense and not how you remember the episode being recorded. So that, that was a tip that I definitely picked up while I was doing that.

Kieron Bailey: 00:18:13

I have a question for Shell meditating because Shell, your podcast goes into some really kind of detailed conversations about people's personal lives of history. Kind of how do you find the editing process? Kind of are you cutting much out or are you just thinking right this is this you've given of themselves.

I'm just letting it go.

Shell Righini: 00:18:29

I feel really lazy compared to you guys. I don't do any editing. I, I fly by the seat of my pants, which that was the way I did it.

Because of naivety when I started the podcast, I didn't even consider that I might need like a script or like, you know, questions or maybe to have researched my guest. I was just grateful that people were willing to talk about some really difficult conversations.

And so I kind of just was so excited to have people come on that I just didn't know anything else. And I connected. Before I started the podcast, I spoke to Mark. Actually I slid into his DMs.

I was like, hi, I'm starting a podcast and I know you've got a podcast. Can you help me? And he was very gracious and told me lots of lovely advice of which I ignored it all and yeah and just decided to just go with it.

Um, and I haven't, I don't edit because of the nature of my podcast being that it is very much about letting people just have that free flowing conversation. However, I, in my, in my spare time now I do do podcast editing as a job for other people and it is very challenging and I like has been shared.

I don't think people I even. I didn't estimate how long it would take me to do a 25 minute episode. It's taking me literally like 8, 9, 10 hours.

And the challenge as well with this one is that they the guy the guests recorded in the same room and one of them talks really quickly over the other one and. And they have. One has an accent and the other doesn't.

One's Australian and like so AI is wonderful if you speak eloquently like this but if you, if you don't, you're buggered. So yeah, no editing luckily is something I don't really have to do for my own podcast.

However, in terms of just what Tim said to keep track of stories and stuff like that, what I do do is while we're. While I'm interviewing and a couple of you guys have been on my podcast as I make notes and I write reams of notes as I'm chatting to people.

So like for example if Kieran's or Mark's revealed so I haven't had Kieran yet. He's going to be on next reveals something really, really juicy and I want to go back to it.

I'll make myself a little note so that when that flowing conversation allows for I'll be like Kieran, let's just go back to your childhood a second.

Kieron Bailey: 00:21:05

You mentioned that Kieran's a perpetual oversharer. So be prepared to notes and one.

Sarah Kettel: 00:21:12

Of the lords of that one.

Shell Righini: 00:21:15

So you've all got something to recover from Truth foreign.

Sarah Kettel: 00:21:25

I wanted to ask you all a bit about kit. Right. So for example, I'm sat here today. I'm talking straight into my laptop. You know laptops have come a long way.

Microphones and videos have come a long way. You know we are post zoom from lockdown now. So these things are all there at our disposal. But there's a few people who've got headphones on.

There's a few people talking into a mic. I have a mic as well. You can get I think a bit lost in very expensive kit online which people will convince you you need.

But the trut truth is if you're just starting out, what can you get away with?

Timothy R Andrews: 00:21:54

I think you can start off with a 50 quid USB thing from Amazon to start with. I think if you try and or less or less feels pointing or less.

Phil Street: 00:22:05

Pointing at the actual microphone that is a usb. Oh is it number from Amazon? Yeah.

And so I have had this microphone since I started the podcast and I've learned that you can't use this in every environment. But when you're in a controlled environment like I am now, it absolutely is fine.

It does, you know, it maybe is 25% less quality than perhaps something that you might pay a few hundred quid for. But if you're starting out, you don't. You absolutely don't need to worry about that kind of stuff. This is absolutely good enough in this.

Kieron Bailey: 00:22:36

Environment, I would say, as well, Facebook Marketplace is your friend. Like, you can go out there, you can get lots of good quality stuff, equipment that other people have bought. Because most people.

Podcasts don't go past four episodes, but lots of people do buy lots to get to start it and then sell it.

Shell Righini: 00:22:54

That's such dark advice, Kieran. But it's so relevant. Lots of people fail, so get their stuff.

Kieron Bailey: 00:23:01

Well, I'll put you out.

Mark McCulloch: 00:23:04

I think it's not just failing as well. I think just podcasters that are then getting really into it.

It's like cars or guitars or what, you know, you'll just keep going, oh, I'm just gonna upgrade again. And actually, if you can find someone that's on that, they'll care of the stuff before and all the rest of it.

Also look out for days like Amazon prime days and things like that, where, you know, you'll get a good reduction. I was going to say a different thing and I know it's. What can you get away with? This is why I've got no money. There's a.

There's a great phrase which is buy cheap, buy twice. And I think sometimes, you know, if you think, actually, I'm going to be into this.

If you buy some good catch and let's say you buy 300 quid's worth of stuff, let's say you've splashed out. Let's see. Actually, you'll get to play with it and you'll get to sell it on for 250.

So actually you've sort of rented it for 50 quid for your time, you know what I mean? So, actually the good stuff will keep its value. I mean, I've got my own £800 mic at the moment that is never going to happen short term.

The one that Howard Stern uses that I just. I'm absolutely obsessed with. And I did a podcast with Soul House and they built a mini studio for me, Nick, to do the podcast.

And of course they had two of these that were using and I just wanted to lick it, it was so delicious. It's a annoying mic.

Sarah Kettel: 00:24:33

You have to say. They had two and now they have one.

Mark McCulloch: 00:24:36

No, no, no, I didn't get away when you get checked at the door. But, but, yeah, but. But I would say maybe just go a bit above basement level.

You Know, a little bit like the wine list, you know, don't buy the house wine a little bit. So there's that. And then of you get into the world of what real podcasting is now, which is getting into Champions League stuff.

And it's now a podcast, a TV show.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:25:01

Yeah.

Mark McCulloch: 00:25:02

So all of a sudden you've got, you know, it doesn't have to be, but if you want the clips and the thing and the thing, the thing. You know, it's cameras, it's editing that, it's Mike's, it's lights, it's, you know, if you're going to the other end of things.

But the competition, if you are wanting to, you know, be podcast famous and really get. That's kind of what it's taken now. But I think the fundamental thing is do it for you first.

You know, just do it as your hobby, do it as something that you want to do. And it's about getting your hours.

And the first few podcasts will be awful and that's okay because you won't look back on them and eventually they'll drop off and whatever. It's just getting your hours in. And another tip would be try and maybe get into radio in some way.

So, you know, try and host a we show a local online station or hospitality radio, hospital radio or something like that.

If you can get those hours up of just being used to being behind the mic and fluffing up and all the rest of it, very quickly you'll get into this sort of muscle memory that you start to become a bit more one take, you know, and then that cuts down on your editing and all the rest of it. But yeah, as I say, if you really want to do it, I think you're not going to lose much money if you buy half decent kit.

And I can send you a link to all the kit that I've got if people want to have a nosy and. And see, you know, because I forever get asked about that.

Shell Righini: 00:26:33

Yeah, I need new kit, Mark, so can I have that link, please?

Mark McCulloch: 00:26:36

You can have the link. I'm not buying you nothing for your Christmas. But yeah.

Shell Righini: 00:26:46

No, because I did what you said. I bought cheap. And it's one of those that you kind of now think like, I Wish I hadn't 18 months ago because I have had to replace it.

But more so it's been a headache, you know, it's just that constant, like, is it going to work? Isn't it going to work? Oh my God, does it sound right? And especially when you've Got guests, maybe from NFTs or wherever, giving you their time.

Mark McCulloch: 00:27:06

You don't want to waste money.

Shell Righini: 00:27:08

And then that's.

Mark McCulloch: 00:27:09

That's all money, you know, that's the way that I think about it.

That's if you try and put into cash terms of what you cost an hour, all these things, and, you know, it's kind of like the Ryanair fleet, you know, taking the Ryanair flight so that you could save 50 quid to, you know, actually you'd been better off, you know, going in comfort and less stress. So, yeah, I think that's a big lesson I've learned. Just, you know, save up, go for it.

And also credit cards and, you know, all that just, you know, put it away somewhere and pay it off later.

Tracey Rashid: 00:27:39

I think as well is remembering that you, your voice is a piece of kit as well. So, you know, draw on the experiences that you've had before.

I know Mark was saying you can get onto like a hospital radio station and kind of practice and get through it that way, but if you've got a background in speaking or whatever it might be, draw on that, be yourself. Don't think you have to kind of create this, this voice or this Persona or something that's different to you because people want you.

That's the whole point of your podcast. So your voice is a really crucial piece of kit. And whatever you're buying would just amplify. That was how I see it.

Shell Righini: 00:28:15

Yeah, that is great advice.

Sarah Kettel: 00:28:16

And actually, Tracy, you haven't even seen my rough script. But this, this leads very. We're psychic. It's fine. This leads very nicely into the next section that we're going to cover.

So, you know, you've got the platform, you found an editor, you've got whatever kit you've decided to get, but the next thing is, what are you going to talk about? Okay. And this is where people do get stuck. I think they want a podcast, but what are they going to talk about?

Or they've got a seed of an idea and how do you grow on that? So we're going to start you all really. How did you.

How did you find your why for why you're making the podcast and how did that lead to you finding your voice for the podcast?

Timothy R Andrews: 00:28:58

I'll start with talking hospitality, because then response to the negativity that was going on in all the media, social media, everything like that, main media, although we love them now, the caterer, all of that was saying things like, hospitality will never recover.

And yet we were hearing people going out and Doing some really positive things, even, you know, sporting communities, making sure that people learn how to cook with even the basic stuff. Selling Michelin Star meals for three quid. You know, it was like an incredible time that we weren't hearing about.

And so basically we did a podcast to talk about that stuff. I think for our. In hindsight, I think for our own. It's our own sanity, everything we knew and loved had been turned into chaos.

And it was just one way of us saying, well, what else is going on out there? And that's why we did it. And we wanted to share that news with people.

So, like a little tiny drop of, you know, goodness against the sea of depression, really.

Phil Street: 00:29:58

And I was kind of pretty much exactly the same, except I suppose I predated Covid.

I'd had this idea around the fact that exactly what you're saying is actually all of the stuff that gets out there into the mainstream media is just really centered around the crap side of the industry, which does exist, and we can't deny that it does in certain cases. But also my experience is that there's an awful lot of really good stuff too, and way more good stuff than bad stuff.

And I definitely think that we as an industry, we really, really suffer from this image that people perceive the industry just to be full of problems and things like that, and every sector has the problems. So really I just wanted to use my voice, and this is something that I really struggled with. I've always been.

I suppose I've suffered with imposter syndrome a lot through my life in terms of why does my voice matter? And it wasn't until I got into my 40s where I kind of just. So basically what I'm saying is this is my midlife crisis. And the.

The bottom line with that is, is that all of a sudden I started to put some emphasis in that my voice does have power. And actually my experience is pretty positive.

So let's go and just talk to other people about their positive experiences to showcase the fact that actually what you might have heard out there is not wholly true. And. And here is why. And just do that through the. The stories of. Of the people that already work here.

Kieron Bailey: 00:31:26

I mean, for my money, people on purpose was quite selfish, if I'm really honest with you. So I. I had a bit of a mental breakdown this year and just totally lost my way and felt like a total. Lost my purpose.

And Michael very helpfully identify he won the same or the tactics for short term.

So this is one of the tactics of kind of What I do walk forward so it's having interesting conversations people about that there's very or their family that kind of impact euphuenextics and how it kind of ties into their ambition what that looks like.

So it's really helpful for me to have conversations kind of like debris not being a Jesse so I just can conversely van crypto van country their own center perks not these that a lot.

Phil Street: 00:32:12

Of fun and I think that's a really key point as well is that I think there has to be an element of self catharticism if that's the word you know as because otherwise you will be one of the people who get to four episodes and that's the end of it.

You know I think you've got to take some joy in what you're doing and actually find something within the conversations that you're having that that just excite you or get you motivated to get up and do this every week or every month or however long you you're deciding to do it for. Yeah, for sure.

Kieron Bailey: 00:32:46

I mean I'm going rogue.

I'm literally traveling the country with a podcast setup studio in a suitcase and just set it up wherever I am just taking some shepherd James Mox sending up by the way Mark he's talked about the podcast experience on your podcast when we were chatting and and literally just wanted to the street food place and shed build Aston of the boozy corner. One of them Itron set up did exactly as Mark said audio sets up cameras are set up but it's all government.

The only reason you're doing that because you all enjoy it have a great.

Mark McCulloch: 00:33:15

Time otherwise what draft conversation I sought professional help when I was looking at setting up the podcast because I just wanted it to be really good. And what I did was was lucky but a great time and I'm a real radio geek. I love radio.

So reached out to one of my favorite DJs a guy called Jeff Lloyd and he used to be an absolute radio and Virgin and all that and Jeff and he's a massive podcaster now and he said his producer was leaving to set up a podcast business which knows when an awards all over the shop you know, BBC and all these great things.

So I got him for 35 pounds an hour at the time and what we did was we front loaded some costs to basically create the program and then from there he would then do my editing for the first little while and all kind of cost you done. So basically what he taught me was structure and we talked about my Favorite podcast, my favorite broadcasters, all these things.

And then we just pulled all that together. And one of my favorite ones is Adam Buxton, you know, comedy podcast or comedy interviewing podcast.

So we sort of roughly based it on that in terms of structure.

So he said, right, what you're going to do is I spoke an intro when you're walking along Brighton beach or you're out and about or telling people where you are and you're just seeing what's happening. Then from the. There'll be like a theme tune that is, you know, gets to be recognizable. Eventually put some work into that.

So basically I wrote out to a bunch of friends and said, could you just say Supersonic in any way that you like? So a bunch of people then come back with all these kids saying it and stupid voices and all the rest of it.

So we put all that together and we didn't invest a lot of money in the music, but it was like an indie guitar riff that actually came up when I wrote Supersonic guitar into. I think it was Pond five or whatever you call it, and that. And then it had accompanied Stings. So then we knew.

And then the best shows as well have little Stings. So, you know, you do your bit and there's a sting and, you know, sort of do all that.

And then we knew that we didn't want to tire the audience out with too many adverts, so we structured those.

We figured out how to do adverts, and a lot of people wanted me to read it, which I'd rather someone else did it to break it up, but they kind of want you. And then it's not quite a catchphrase.

But a familiar thing happens now in the episodes where I'll say, so it gives me the most, and then I insert some sort of relevant word pleasure ever to, you know, introduce blah, blah, blah. So that sort of stuck. Someone pointed it. I think it was Charlie McVeigh or Mark Stretton pointed it out that I said it every time.

And I was like, oh, okay, right. That might be a thing. So I've not quite got to, you know, what's up for whatever the catchphrases. I've not quite got to that yet.

But, yeah, I think investing in your structure, but go. Go as niche as you like. But I would say also give yourself some room to grow, because the podcast will change over time.

My original idea was going to be. It was going to be about hospitality marketing, really. And it's not really worked out that way.

You know, I'm talking to CEOs and, you know, you know, senior people in hospitality that people want to hear from. And then I've managed to get the odd schleb on as well. So it's sort of widened out. So it's.

It's a bit of a duality thing, but make it niche, but also don't box yourself in.

Shell Righini: 00:36:50

That's.

Sarah Kettel: 00:36:50

Yeah, that's a really good point about.

Tim mentioned earlier about niche podcasts being the ones that are generally the ones that do best because they reach a very sort of targeted audience.

Shell Righini: 00:37:01

But it's.

Sarah Kettel: 00:37:02

It's interesting for me to. To consider that when I think about your podcast, Michael, because for me, okay, the only niche there, I think, is hospitality.

But the sort of topics that your guests cover are extremely broad. Yeah.

Michael Tingsager: 00:37:18

And that was, you know, a bit.

Kieron Bailey: 00:37:19

Like back in mind.

Michael Tingsager: 00:37:20

I have to take there. It goes with the books a lot.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:37:23

Book.

Michael Tingsager: 00:37:25

Actually comes from.

I got this book from my favorite professor at university when I was writing my dissertation at the same time implementing good to great in a business. And. And I learned that some businesses that goes through whatever comes, pandemics, inflation, whatever comes, they win.

And I thought this is super interesting. And that was like my egoistic reason to start the podcast. The way I talk with industry leaders, because I love food and hospitality.

I want to find the businesses that does that in hospitality.

And that what I found out is not just about businesses, as you said, there's also humans that reinvent themselves and just like go through challenges. And I call them the mavericks. So it's both individuals, its suppliers, its organizations that actually have this maverick behavior.

And that's really what I'm looking for. I want to share. So it's about, like, how can you actually make the industry better by getting some hacks in principle to make yourself better.

But actually it came out of not me thinking all that. It's a bit like Mark said, evolved over time. I had a clear strategy and I wanted to find organizations, thus doing that. Let's think about dishoom.

Think about these kind of companies that does these unique things. And then it just evolved as I was developing the show on the go. But actually, as Mark said, I actually went in as well from the outset.

It's because one of my customers was saying, oh, I would love to be a wall on the fly on the wall when you're talking with CEOs about their organizational challenges. Oh, that's interesting. Can you write blogs about that? I'm never going to sit down and write a blog. You know, I don't have the time for that.

And then I had to write a book. To me, that was a marketing genius said, do a podcast. I said, well, how do I do that? They said, just do what Tim Ferriss does.

Sit down and chat with people, Michael. Ask them all these interesting questions. You have there. You 100 questions the CEO. And that was likely how it started and that was the why.

And then for me, it became like my personal mba.

And now I think it has just become that thing of how can you actually help organization peoples and teams to become better in the hospitality industry? Because if we become better as an industry, more profitable, we will also make the world a better place.

Because hospitality is the unique skill that makes this industry different, but also what we need in this world suffering. So it's really about my own linguistical purpose.

But also there was actually an audience that my key core audience that still are listening, a thousand super fans wanted to Hear what other CEOs, HR directors were doing to build great organizations. So that was actually why I us up.

Phil Street: 00:39:59

I think also Michael raises a great point generally. I mean, he always raises great points. But the one that I picked up from there was around the, you know, the Tim Ferriss analogy.

I think you don't have to reinvent the wheel with this in terms of coming up with a new way of doing things. Ultimately, a podcast really can only be a conversation, right?

Whether that's a one person, two microphone conversation or a one person to someone else or some other people, there's not a lot else you can do with it other than that.

So, you know, the, the look at the people who are successful, you know, Joe Rogan, Tim Ferriss, Stephen Bartlett, you know, all of these kind of regular people and just ask yourself, why are they successful?

And I think half the time it actually comes down to your ability to ask good, good questions and get them talking, which is ironically, you know, I'm talking now, aren't I? So. But I think it is, it was a key point for me is that to understand.

And I suppose maybe this is where my recruitment background also helped was because I'm used to asking people questions and getting them to open up about themselves. But when you relax them down, that's when you get the gold, the really, really good stuff.

Kieron Bailey: 00:41:11

I think you need to be brave questions as well. Sorry, Sarah, be brave with your questions.

I was chatting with somebody last week and a window opportunity opened up to kind of to dig into their family and kind of. And they kind of opened it up slightly and I saw the opportunity to kind of just climb through it and took it.

And there was a moment where they were slightly uncomfortable, but they still spoke and they spoke truly and generously of this kind of this family experience that if you're not looking for those opportunities and don't take the risk of poking while they could just say to me, actually, don't I?

But actually, more often than not, people, if you've done the job popping, you've relaxed them and got to a couple space that will just kind of actually. And that becomes hugely impactful start to have a really genuine conversation.

Sarah Kettel: 00:41:54

That's interesting that you said that. I'm glad that you kind of link those two things together because you're talking about obviously questions and making people feel comfortable.

Michelle, on your podcast, people are tackling very, very difficult subjects. And, you know, like you said yourself, you know, there's no script. You just want people to have their moment to talk.

So the question thing doesn't really come into it, but it is the. It is the comfort part and making sure they're comfortable to speak and just to open up. So do you. Do you purposely create an environment for that?

Shell Righini: 00:42:22

Yes, I mean, I. Well, I always tell people before we start recording everything that they say it belongs to them and, you know, they've got complete control over it.

And if at any point they don't feel happy about something, you know, just flag it, we'll edit it out. You know, I can send the edit to. To them, all of that kind of thing, and until they've kind of signed it off, it belongs to them.

And by kind of, I've. No one's ever taken me up on it.

And I think because of the nature of the style of podcast anyway and what we're talking about, people who have recovered from addiction, I mean, anything really, we bloody love to talk about it. Because when you survive something and anyone can relate to this, then it's something that it really, really a powerful.

Your story is something that you share with such excitement and exuberance that luckily there's not really been too much challenge in getting people to kind of go there. I've had a few of those moments, which I call my Stephen Bartlett moments, where they go, I've never told anyone else this before, but.

And I just make sure to keep my face very light. But inside I'm like, fuck, yeah. Which is great. That's like what we want. So you start to do like.

So I think, yeah, like I say, luckily the nature of my podcast is that the people coming on there are specifically coming on because they want to share their story, because they know how much their stories can help other people's. But I just want to quickly touch on the idea of pivoting and stuff like that and evolving.

So my podcast for two seasons now has focused on hospitality conversations. And very quickly I realized that I didn't just want to talk to people about addiction. And over the two seasons, we've also.

I've talked to people about all sorts of hospitality stuff, you know, toxic workplaces. And I've spoken to organizations and mentors and lots of other things. And when the podcast came out, Mike, the advice was to be very niche.

And this was like 18 months ago.

And the advice these days, however, is to be a little bit broader, you know, because what's happened is that everyone's niche, and now we've got loads of niche podcasts.

And so I did initially think, well, I've got to just throw it all away and start again, because I don't know if I want to only talk about these things. And luckily, I've got some really wonderful friends who have said to me, you can evolve and you can pivot and you can change.

And I think that's, again, something that's really important. Important to realize when you're podcasting that it's all right that if you get to a point with your subject matter.

And for me, my subject matter was completely cathartic. I'm neurodivergent. And one of the things that neurodivergent people had is an intense sense of social injustice.

And I could not sit and be quiet and allow what happened to me in my interest in the industry to not be spoken about. Like, that was my big drive, but I'm kind of over it now, kind of healed.

I don't know if I still want to talk about that, but what happens in the beauty of the podcast is that I've realized that recovery covers so many things. You know, we all recover from something. If it's an eating disorder, a toxic relationship, it's ourselves.

You know, it's body image, it's perimenopause. You know, I've got a chronic illness. There's so much incredible stories of just yet of recovery. And that's not also limited to hospitality.

So in season three, I've now got the honor of being able to talk to all sorts of people from all sorts of walks of life. And I just think it's really important as well that we. That it's all right, that if you evolve, the evolution is not a negative.

Even if it is shit scary. So please still listen.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:46:12

I think there's two points, right? Because I think there's two points to this because you've got, you evolve as well.

Like Mark said earlier on, your first episodes are going to be a bit shit, right? Because so you, because you're learning the process, you are going through a journey.

But the other thing is your podcast, they have what they call a long tail in marketing. So like, you know, you've got five years.

Somebody, five years from now, somebody might pick up one of the episodes now and they're at the start of this journey.

So while you might have moved on and stuff, that podcast will still be there and still so long as it, depending on the subject, it will still be relevant for people and people can still learn from it. I mean we had, it was early this year, I had a, an email for. It was on LinkedIn.

Somebody contacted me about the episode that we did with a trans person on and they were talking about trans rights and this person literally said that they just listened to him. We think that about two and a half years ago, two years ago. And they consider themselves completely reeducated on the matter.

And it was such an honor to have somebody listen to a little 20 minute episode that we did with a guest, but has absolutely transformed their opinion on, on, on trans rights. And I think that's the magic of a podcast because it's there forever. And like you said, why we might have evolved.

There are people at different stages throughout that entire journey and that's why it's important to share these stories with other people.

Shell Righini: 00:47:36

So beautiful. And even just then like what you said, you know, I think your why, why are you doing it?

And if you're doing it because you want 10,000 downloads an episode and you want to make money and all of that stuff, then cool. Crack on. Probably easier ways to make money. Can't all be Mark. You know, it's not, it's.

But if your why is that moment right there, you make an impact on one person's life by doing that one episode. If that's your why, then this is the best value thing you will ever do with your life.

So again, I think it's just about like making sure you understand that the payoff might look different to the way you thought it would. But that doesn't mean that it's not really worthwhile.

Mark McCulloch: 00:48:28

And don't, don't forget, you can have more than one podcast.

Phil Street: 00:48:32

Yeah.

Mark McCulloch: 00:48:34

So you know, a lot of people are like, oh my God, I've got here you know, and yeah, there's loads that would be double the work and actually might not be double the work. There might be economies of scale across it. But that's the other thing, you know, like thinking about shell stuff.

Maybe there is that core of recovery and all the rest of it. Maybe there's something else about relationships or, you know, finding your why or something about butterfly. Who knows?

So, you know, because I, you know, I had two running for a while or not that long, but during COVID so I had a 90s music one, which is my real sort of passion, just music in general, and it gave me the license to talk to my heroes from when I was a kid. So it was like just such a buzz just having like all. All my favorite, as many favorites. That said, yes, people from the 90s.

And it was just a fanboy moment that was all, you know, and, you know, that did okay. So again, don't feel that then this one vehicle has then got to do everything ever. You know, you can then try like bonus series, sub series.

Maybe you have a special within the podcast that's focusing on something else, or there's a whole bunch, bunch of ways to play it. But look at what other podcasts do. You know, Richard Herring's very good at it.

You know, he has got a book club as well as doing live stuff as well as doing. And he's just shamelessly just chucking them in and absolutely take a leaf out the goal hanger book as well.

I mean, they're the gods of podcasting at the moment. I mean, the number one in every chart and the way they monetize it and so, so clever. So you can take a lot of inspiration as well out there. What.

Phil Street: 00:50:09

What was that called, Mark? That one?

Mark McCulloch: 00:50:11

What, go Hanger?

Phil Street: 00:50:13

Aye.

Mark McCulloch: 00:50:13

I've not heard. It's Gary Lineker's production.

Phil Street: 00:50:16

He's Scottish. And I immediately start going, I oh.

Mark McCulloch: 00:50:18

Yeah, it's Gary Lineker's production house. So the rest is entertainment, the rest is politics. The rest is history. The rest is football. Absolute masterclass.

Tracey Rashid: 00:50:29

I was gonna say the. The thing that keeps coming up is evolution of your podcast.

And I think one of the things Timothy will agree to is obviously started the podcast with Sarah during lockdown, wanted to celebrate the goodness in. In the industry and all the good things that people are doing.

And there came a point, particularly after I came on board, that we realized when we were kind of like reviewing everything that it was all a bit too good, if that makes sense. But all the questions were good to get good Answers and it was very fluffy and it didn't feel real enough.

We kind of thought actually if we want our listeners to learn and take something away from this, it needs to be more lifelike, it needs to be more honest. And we kind of started changing the questions and how we kind of approach people and who we were talking to in the industry as well.

So it wasn't always the top flyers, it was the people who are hospitality, if that makes sense, what makes it the industry that it is. And I think that's what's really changed the dynamic of talking hospitality.

And the fact that like Mark just said, you know, doing specials, having multiple guests, all those sorts of things has really kind of made a different voice for us on, on the podcast, but in a good way because people want to hear the dirty stuff as well. Let's face it, it's not about the happy fluffy all the time. And so I'm really glad we had the opportunity to involve that part as well.

Timothy R Andrews: 00:51:51

Yeah, that's a good point because we, when Sarah and I started it, we. Well, I was working for, were government funded business. So I had to be very careful what we were saying. And that was for two seasons.

And that did impact on what we want to say because anybody that knows Sarah or gets to know it will know she's very feisty and not backwards in coming forward. And we had to restrain and edit. We weren't allowed to say anything about Boris because Boris was putting money into the company I was working for.

So it did, did, it did make a difference and it does make it.

And because like life, life changes, we're more liberal to do that and we're able to get people talk about dirty stuff and now we're not afraid to have the swear word.

Sarah Kettel: 00:52:34

Conflict of interest is a, is a big thing, isn't it? Because I think it's, you know, I guess and this, this kind of comes to something where we were going to touch on anyway.

It was like, you know, you have to be quite brave to put your voice out there.

Like even if you've got, you know, if you're a teenager with a social media account now someone's going to find it and somebody might, you know, post some abuse about something that you've posted. Which is kind of terrifying when you think about the world we live in where everyone has access to you.

Now if you decide to put a podcast out there, you're amplifying that even more quite literally. And you're saying, listen to me, judge what I'm saying, which is what people will do. It's quite hard, I think, to.

To sometimes look back and go, oh, gosh, should I have said that? But did have any of you had moments where you've gone, I feel a little bit funny about that. I don't know where this is going to go.

Shell Righini: 00:53:22

Oh, God, yeah. I mean, I had friends telling me not to do it because of the subject matter and because I was really putting myself out there.

And, you know, let's be clear, I was not a great manager a lot of the time. I don't know if that's not fair.

I was a really good manager, but there are things that I did that I'm not proud of, and I only did the things that I did because that's what I saw others do.

You know, there were times that I was a very toxic manager where I did the whole Gordon Ramsay, you know, screaming and then the coddling after and all of this. And there I am now on a pod. And I. And I used alcohol constantly with my team to motivate them.

Shots afterwards, stay after work, drink with me, you know, and so I was really conscious that to have somebody who potentially had had a very negative, toxic influence on somebody to sit there in recovery, like, here I am recovered, you know, with my podcast, you know, all of that. But I've probably caused a lot of harm to a lot of people because of my behavior that was really challenging.

But luckily, so far, I have did have a few messages that were challenging, and I had to just go through that as part of my healing process of being able to say, yes, you're right, I didn't behave in the way that I'm proud of. I didn't know then what I know now. I am sorry.

And I've been able to at least heal some of those wounds for people, and then in the ones for people who don't reach out, I just make sure that I'm very, very honest within the podcast and that you can hear across the episodes that I do learn and I do change, and I have got that ability to, you know, to have humility and stuff like that. But you're very, very right.

When we do podcasts, I think even regardless of what the subject matter is, you are opening yourself up for people from your past to come back and say, well, hang on a second, you've changed your tune. And da, da, da, da. I think it's then just about the way that you deal with it afterwards. But it was a real. And it could still be one.

Kieron Bailey: 00:55:27

So, I mean, this is where Vulnerability is really key and being comfortable with vulnerability and kind of recognizing what you've done wrong throughout your career because not a single person on the screen right now has been the best leader that they would have ever wanted to be given a point. Now I.

I class myself for being a man who understands leadership but I also know there have been times and there are people who have just walked away with memories of being spoiled. Great. So remembering being real with us and being honest with these are really key part of the conversation.

And just not sitting there presenting yourself as being this I am God like I have that's in every single step possible moving forward. I'm as good as it gets. Always happening, always will be. That doesn't work.

I think I remember back to when I first started out doing LinkedIn content videos.

I remember one guy I used to work for me just trolled the living crap out on time for about two months because he just because he ended up getting fired and he took it really bad. He was fired because he stole from in the tip 14 when he spoke construction he didn't talk about why he was fired.

He talked about undeterred person who let him go. And I was not the leader that I was telling them all what I was.

We can get into this if we want but I don't think you do if you but recognizing when you call them short most of all for just a fact and Monica's been 25 years of operations. I just count how many people through it and in my house I've been amazing.

I'm not a super so being confident to just accept that also it's a conversation. It's not sheddling you're just which itself will demonstrate vulnerability with other people with lots of things.

Sarah Kettel: 00:57:07

Yeah.

That's really interesting you said about vulnerability actually Kieran because you know one of the things that I wanted to touch on I think it's something you mentioned before as well about you know having imposter syndrome and and thinking sort of why am I worthy of this?

A lot of people go through that stage when they're thinking about setting up a podcast where the question really inside you is why would anyone want to listen to me now? I had a a chat actually last night on the phone. Timothy and I were talking about this and so I don't know if you. Do you remember what you said to.

Shell Righini: 00:57:37

Me about that last night?

Sarah Kettel: 00:57:39

Well, Tim's actually frozen so I'm going to tell you what he said. He said I very quickly stopped giving a so which is kind of the Perfect answer.

But I actually wanted to ask, did anyone else, like, did you all go through that? Did everyone have that? Oh, God, why do they want to listen to me? Like, why would anyone care what I have to say?

And if you did go through that, how did she get over it?

Tracey Rashid: 00:58:02

I didn't have the so much. Why would they want to listen to me? Because of course, they come off. But for me, it was.

For me, it was some of the topics that we were talking about on the podcast.

Knowing some of the people that I have in my life was like, the fact that I'm kind of associated with these topics, and how would they feel that I'm talking about it and delving further into it and knowing that it's not how they feel about it. That for me was like, oh, don't. Do I want to share this podcast with them? Do I want to tell them that I'm part of it, even though I have no.

There's no shame or embarrassment from my side? But what would they then think of me? Because I was a part of it? So that was something that I had to get over, and I got to put my foot.

I don't give a shit. I love what I'm doing, and it's interesting, it's fun, it's educational, and it's supporting and helping people.

So actually, if that's your opinion, and excuse the phrase ignorance, then so be it. But we just have to keep going on because someone needs to know what we're talking about, even if it's one person, then that's enough for me.

Phil Street: 00:59:03

I think there's. There's two things in play for me. One, it just came down to the fact, would I like to listen to my show.

I don't mean specifically listening to my own voice about stuff, but, like, if would I take an interest in the content that's going to be provided in here? And if the answer to that was yes, then. Then you're on to something. As a starting point, I think Kieran's point of vulnerability is massive.

Always, always, always. When I look back around my life, really, really what's held me back, held me back has been me, because I've really, really suffered with that.

Allah, doxophobia, the fear of other people's opinions. And one day when you wake up and you realize that that's not serving you is the day that you. That you realize, well, maybe there is.

There's a podcast voice in there, or there's a voice in there of some description that wants to say something Meaningful that, that if I would like this, then maybe other people would like it too. But I think getting past your own vulnerability is massively important to get to that point.

Mark McCulloch: 01:00:03

I think you're totally right, Phil and I had that too. You know, I really had. I've got a list of people I think that I've maybe of, you know, not gelled with over the years or whatever.

And it was those people I thought, well, they'll be laughing at me doing this. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're sort of putting yourself out there and what will they think?

And then I think, you know, I was a huge fan of Gary Vayner, Chuck, in the early days, and, you know, still a lot of what he says is good, but he really was like, look, you know, you are stopping yourself from growing. You're stopping yourself potentially from putting food on the table. You're stopping yourself from being yourself.

So once you get over that, then I think that's okay. And the other thing I was going to say is we're all in business, right? Like, it's actually not a bad biz dev tool.

And it was never, ever set up for that, ever. Right? But you'll meet someone new that you've never met. You can't really hold a mask up for one hours, two hours.

Well, you can, but it would be pretty exhausting.

So they get to hang out with you and, you know, usually are trying to be quite a genial host and make them feel comfortable and they realize that you maybe know some stuff and things like that.

So actually, after some podcast episodes, you might get a little lead out of it, or you may get a recommendation, or you may get an introduced to someone and. And it's never about that. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not this huge master plan to be a Trojan horse. I'm not clever enough for that.

But at the same time, that's worked out as well. And just it's the thing that Rory Sullivan Sutherland talks about, which is increasing your surface area.

So with every lesson, with every episode, with every post on LinkedIn and Instagram and all the rest of it, you just, you know, again, one person sees it. They may not contact you for a year and a half, half, but you'll get. You're getting it out there. And obviously there's.

There's the ego thing, which is when your episode is live and drops, you're pretty proud. I think most weeks that it's went out, and it's lovely to get messages back going, I really enjoyed that.

Or I've listened to that 13 times or whatever it was. You know, it's a lovely thing.

So yeah, I think, I think it's just go for it and what you can do is launch it and go and hide in your bed for a couple of days. Days and you know, just see what the reaction is. You can always take it down if it's that bad.

The last point I was going to make because I know maybe time and all that was that none of us are going to make front page of the Sun. Right. So you can overthink this in terms of going, oh my God.

And over editing in every ER and um and R and you know, all these things or oh God, I said that. Or you know. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Michael's Michael mug. Who says what say we suffer what.

Michael Tingsager: 01:02:47

We suffer more in imagination than in reality.

Mark McCulloch: 01:02:51

Than reality. Yeah. So exactly. From that point of view it's just like look, don't, you know, I think is Nando's always talk about the end of the day.

We only serve chicken and chips. Don't over worry about it. And it's the same thing with podcasting.

Like, you know, if you're lucky you're going to get a couple of hundred listeners and you know, no one's going to sort of drop their bacon sandwich that you've said something out of turn or something, you know. So don't stress about that.

Shell Righini: 01:03:17

I mean if no one's listening to it, no one's going to notice when you stop doing it, are they?

Mark McCulloch: 01:03:22

Well, you are you, you are. You will. Yeah.

Kieron Bailey: 01:03:29

They are not giving us the thing about not giving a shit that kind of quite. Anybody knows me to spend time at the outside. Fundamentally I'm full apologetic to be kind of me and my. And I. I used to put a think of that mindset.

It's not. I don't appreciate it. It's actually it's not that at all I do. It's just their opinion isn't defined being what I assume anything.

So when I get comfortable with that, then update. It's okay to understand, to be conscious of what people are thinking, they say. But that's what we find a difference in it.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:03:58

I think one of the best things I did was I did a YouTube. That's terrible. I did a YouTube channel for during lockdown. It was awful.

But what happened is I learned how to not care about what I was projecting so much and then that gave me a freedom in terms of being able to speak more and just not worrying about what other people did. I mean, basically one of them was me doing exercises really badly. Even with, like, ridiculous things, with me farting when I'm doing squats.

Just that kind of level, low brow, but it's still out there. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I need to think about it now. I'm a professional. All right. That got me over it. Because what's the worst that can happen? Literally.

Yeah.

Phil Street: 01:04:41

And don't forget the. The. The words of one of the. The greatest philosophers of all time, which is that the haters are going to hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Right.

So it's true.

Like, just get over the fact that you might get some backlash, but don't let that be the thing that stops you doing the thing that gives you joy and passion and fun and all of that kind of stuff. And I. I have actually, I think I said this and we had a chat the other day. Gents around. I've been trolls before.

It's the greatest troll in the existence. Cheers, kid. In the existence of all trolls, which was quite simply. Stop being so bloody positive. That was. That was what.

And I was like, let's keep that standard up, guys. Yeah, let's have more of that. If that's the best you want, then I'm game. I'm ready to be trolled.

Sarah Kettel: 01:05:31

Yeah, you're good. If that's all they could throw at you, Phil, you're good.

Phil Street: 01:05:34

Yeah, awesome.

Kieron Bailey: 01:05:35

If they're listening to you to troll you, they're just adding to your numbers. Thank them very much and have it. Have a good day, folks.

Sarah Kettel: 01:05:43

Thanks for listening.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:05:45

It's just going to take me a.

Tracey Rashid: 01:05:46

Step closer to a sponsor.

Michael Tingsager: 01:05:57

You're doing this because you want to find your best self. I think a lot of podcasting about how do I actually become the best version of myself? And there's so much in that as well that gives back to you.

Doing a podcast, and I think Mark said that it was great business development tool, but also you meet people, you get perspectives of life that you would never have, and that really what grows you, like, in these conversations, there's also. There's the interview and there's the conversations you have off the market.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:06:23

Yeah.

Michael Tingsager: 01:06:24

It's just so valuable sometimes.

And the meetups you have with people after you had them on the show, where you build a relationship with these people and they help you on your journey.

And I think that's probably, you know, you can have sponsors, you can get business opportunity, but that way you're growing yourself and become the best, better version of yourself. That's really where I think there is some and then you come, you know, you have your procrastination all the time.

We all suffer from imposter syndrome. It's just about question about how do we manage it.

But I really think it's like if you want to become a better version of yourself, why I would say the podcast really definitely for me and I don't know if others here feel that, but I definitely feel that's really pushed me in a better direction over the last six. Totally. Yes.

Kieron Bailey: 01:07:11

Completely Talk about some of the weirdness as well because I think there's some weirdness attached to it.

You know, I think that moment when you some somebody walks up to you and sees you and kind of shakes your hand and starts to chat to you about they're your best friend and they're no lodge about you and you're like I don't think I've ever made. I did that to Mark.

Like Mark and I met on Twitter, then LinkedIn, then on podcast and by the time we gone like I saw him at event and I was like hey, give him a big hug and he's like why are you hugging? I'm like it's because we're best friend. You're like okay for the all right.

It's a strange but kind of I I went into a restaurant last week and and the host on the restaurant kind of greeted me like as he makes I'm looking I remember most people at most point didn't have a clue as I was and like I just intense just I've seen it. I've just seen your face and like hat sticks out the bright yellow hat.

I was out and that followed Te think about what you do and what you kind of making yourself reasonable and kind of noticeable. But it's a strange feelings anybody else ever felt that feelings are just me being.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:08:11

No, sorry.

Tracey Rashid: 01:08:12

No.

Sarah Kettel: 01:08:12

I like to. I like to think it's because I look like Britney Spears.

Mark McCulloch: 01:08:15

But.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:08:17

Tracy could talk a bit about it because like when we rebranded it to talking hospitality we got suddenly invited to all sorts of things and I think it's partly because you know if I may be so bold if we look majority of us here are white like middle aged men on here and we you know my new podcast host isn't and that was a good thing to have because actually it opened doors for us that we didn't have before. Tracy, I do want to speak about that. Maybe it's more your experience.

Tracey Rashid: 01:08:46

Yeah So I mean I. It's funny saying processing James I Remember saying to Tim, Timothy at the beginning, like, I don't know why you've asked me to be a host.

Like, I don't, I don't get it. You know, I've got my background, but what am I bringing to, to the podcast? He's like, well, you just bringing yourself. Just be yourself.

And so when I was thinking about guests and who we could have on and who we could speak to, who I was drawing on from my kind of background and my professional background was obviously very different from Timothy's. So suddenly we were looking at, I'd done some, some catering for a company, the Caribbean Food Collective. And I was like, oh, I, I know someone.

I know something we can, we can speak to. Before we knew it, we were being invited to their very first award show. They wanted us to present one of the, the awards.

I won an award, but it was like that wouldn't have happened if I wasn't part of, of the group and part of the hosts. And it's just bringing that divert. I hate that word, diversity. It has to be out there. It is there.

We are all different in different, very different ways. But it just bought a different side to what we're doing and what we're trying to achieve.

And also our listening base as well is different because of that. And we didn't do it deliberately. Tim didn't just say, what black friends do I have? I bring on to the show. It was organic. Sarah's so laughing.

It was organic, it was natural, it was just how it ended up being. But it has changed us for the better and I can only imagine so moving forwards as well.

Kieron Bailey: 01:10:27

Tracy, do you bring cake to in person recordings?

Tracey Rashid: 01:10:30

I. I haven't yet. Because if you're not, I'm not Essence of hate then so it's different.

Sarah Kettel: 01:10:38

Sorry.

Phil Street: 01:10:39

But Kate is version of hospitality, right?

Mark McCulloch: 01:10:41

Yeah. I had a cracking one when I first started out at an old podcast called Spectacular, just because that was the company I was with at the time.

And I changed the name, but not really the format.

And anyway, I was out with my business partners in a pub next to the Office in London and we were literally in the true sense of the world having this conversation where they were going, I don't get the podcast, absolute waste of time. And I was like explaining to them this and that. And anyway, this guy came over and he goes, this was early. And he goes, are you Mark McCulloch?

Michael Tingsager: 01:11:16

Do you.

Mark McCulloch: 01:11:16

You got a podcast? And I was like, yeah. And his name was David Lightfoot. We ended up kind of being mates on LinkedIn and all that.

And I was like, right, I'll buy you a pint. Sit down and talk to them about why it's good to have on a podcast. I'd never met the guy before, ever. Just recognized the voice and then that was it.

I was just like, oh, my God, this is brilliant. So, yeah, sat them down and it was just. He was from another agency. And then we kind of got.

Talked to them a couple leads commit, you know, all these things, you know. But it was the funniest. It was like, man, I'm on the Truman show or something. Like, this is mad that this has happened. But, yeah, I was.

I was very, very pleased. That was pretty cool.

Shell Righini: 01:11:55

I think it really touches on, like, though what you guys have just shared about, like, really, really investing or investigating what your why is, you know. So what was. What was my why for starting my podcast? And like, you just said, the things that I've gotten out of it weren't necessarily.

Necessarily the things I went into it for, you know, so I've been asked to speak on panels, which has been incredible. You know, I've. One of the. I mean, it wasn't the. Certainly wasn't the only reason I went to New Orleans.

But when I went to New Orleans to speak at Tales of the Cocktail this year, having that podcast and that behind me was massive.

I've spoken to some of my heroes, and this next season, I'm so excited with the guests I've got because I've basically just asked a load of people that are fangirl over on Instagram and like, that I've seen in the media and stuff like that. And, you know, whether or not there'll be relevant conversations is by the by.

But I've got friends now that I've only made these friends because of the podcast.

So if you'd said right at the beginning, like, you won't make any money, Shell, but you'll make some friends, yeah, maybe I'd have been like, oh, that sounds a bit. However, you know, I'm just so grateful for that sign kind of element of what the podcast has brought for me.

And again, like, what somebody said as well, you know, you do develop as a person by doing this because you put yourself in a situation where you are open and vulnerable and open for feedback and criticism. It's not really something that a lot of us like to do. Let's be clear.

This is like, we don't go out of our way to ask people to, you know, feedback and. And put ourselves out in such a public forum. So yeah, I think for me just remembering that why.

But the gifts that I've had from the podcast have been surprising and continue to surprise and I'm really hopeful then. That's a great.

Another great thing about the podcast I think as well is that once you realize that the things that you can gain from it are actually quite limitless. That limit, that's the excitement as well. You just don't. I don't know where this next season is going to take me. It might take me nowhere.

It might take me everywhere. You know, it might be the thing that helps me get my book started. I think someone's written a book actually in this group.

It might be the thing that gets me on the BBC and it might be the thing that, you know, maybe I'll find the one who knows.

But it's the worst thing that happens is that I get to talk to 15 incredible human beings about the powerful things that they been through and make 15 friends. Well, it's not a bad day's work, is it really?

Tracey Rashid: 01:14:23

Yeah, you know, it's that joy, isn't it? I can hear that joy in a voice shell. And I mean I. Sarah and Timothy, no, I found girl calls it, it's terrible.

But I remember Timothy calling me after he'd met one of his heroes. I won't name names but he was just like, I can't believe their numbers in my phone. It's like, it's just.

Shell Righini: 01:14:45

Was it luck?

Timothy R Andrews: 01:14:46

Close. It was close. I was quite read actually when I got Mark to say yes. I have to say.

Tracey Rashid: 01:14:57

It'S like I'd follow this person, I've seen them on TV and blah, blah. And he was just like, I can't believe there's a connection there now. And you know, he didn't do this for that.

But just having these things and like I say, these gifts that come from it. There's nothing else like it really. It's fabulous.

Sarah Kettel: 01:15:14

I love it. That's so true.

Mark McCulloch: 01:15:15

A question I had was a very quick question was, does anyone else get anxious before doing it? I always get really anxious before an episode.

Sarah Kettel: 01:15:25

100%.

Shell Righini: 01:15:26

Yeah.

Michael Tingsager: 01:15:26

You have to.

Mark McCulloch: 01:15:27

I think that's another thing.

You see to people it's kind of like I have that sort of feeling when I did driving lessons, like when the driving instructor was coming, I was like, I don't want to do it. And then once I did it, I always felt better after it. But I, I, it's interesting. I seem to go through this kind of creative thing which Is.

This is going to be great. Oh, my God, it's going to be terrible. This is going to be great. I'm already. Oh, my God.

And then once you're in, you're so in the zone and happy and calm and, you know, but just that little 15, 20 minutes before, I'm a little bit like a cat in a hot tin roof sort of thing, you know.

Shell Righini: 01:16:02

If you are able just to be really honest about that. And I've actually rescheduled sessions if I've not felt. Because it's not fair on that other person.

And, you know, look, we all deal with quite, you know, mental health. We all have a lot of stuff, and I think it's much better to. There is a line between putting on the game face and getting it done.

And I say the same to my guests. And I've also had a guest come on, and I can see they're not quite there. And I've said to them, look, do you want to. Should we do this another day?

It's not life and death. I can literally reshape. I can change my scheduling. It really doesn't matter. And again, to have that honesty to be able to just say.

Because it is difficult, like you say, Mark, and sometimes you just don't feel like you just can't. It's really. And. And you owe it to yourself, I think, and to your guests to have that honesty to say.

But also, sometimes you do just need that shove off, don't you?

Mark McCulloch: 01:16:49

Yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of energy.

Shell Righini: 01:16:54

And also, yes, I'm exhausted after it.

Sarah Kettel: 01:16:57

Yeah, I think that's important for everyone to know that unfortunately, we are out of time. We do need to wrap up. So I'm gonna pass over to Phil for a closing message from us.

Phil Street: 01:17:08

Oh, yeah, okay, sure. So, yes, it is here. Closing. I just wanted to, I suppose, wrap up, really. First of all, thank you. Thank.

Thank you to you guys for one, putting this show together, two, for making it to 50, and I guess trusting us as your guest list for that 50th episode, it is no mean feat to get to 50 at all. It's. It's a very special occasion. And you, you know, you should absolutely celebrate that for sure. I think maybe as a way to.

To round up on a very, very quick round the table. Your one best piece of advice to anybody who is considering starting a podcast. And I'll just go, Michael, fall in love.

Michael Tingsager: 01:17:56

Asking great questions. Fall in love with that process. Then it's going to be much Easier to be a good host.

Phil Street: 01:18:02

Beautiful, Mark.

Mark McCulloch: 01:18:05

Just do it.

Phil Street: 01:18:06

Very good. You can come again, Kieran.

Kieron Bailey: 01:18:10

It says it on the cap. Just be bold. Be bold. Af, just crack on. You know, just say yes to everything. Everything good you can do. Take some risks.

Ask your fans, the people you're fans of.

Mark McCulloch: 01:18:21

Can I.

Kieron Bailey: 01:18:21

Going in will be a part of it.

Phil Street: 01:18:25

Very good. And I assume the AF stands for Alcohol Free, right?

Kieron Bailey: 01:18:28

Yes.

Shell Righini: 01:18:37

Oh, gosh. Remember your why. Yeah, just. Just keep reevaluating your why.

Bring yourself back to it when you have dark days, when you question yourself, when you wonder if it's all worth it. Just really, really re. Examine your why and be prepared to be flexible on that.

And, you know, understand that change and evolution is not always a negative. You know, it's a great thing.

Phil Street: 01:18:58

Yeah. I'm going to chip in before I give closing remarks to our three people who are involved with the show.

And this is a piece of advice that was given to me. It's not my own. Another Mark, actually, that gave me this worry about perfect later. Just.

Just get on with it and get it launched and then worry about the perfect later. There is a second piece of advice. I'm just going to be cheeky, turn up consistently, and those two things.

I don't want you to go too far away, Sarah, because you've. You've done your fair share of podcasts as well.

Sarah Kettel: 01:19:30

I. I have, yeah, I have. My advice is just don't be afraid to do bad work. Everything starts bad, just do bad work. It always gets better.

Phil Street: 01:19:38

Love it, Tracy.

Tracey Rashid: 01:19:40

Mine is definitely be yourself. Just be yourself and it will all work out at the end.

Phil Street: 01:19:46

Very good. And I'm sure we've nicked them all.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:19:48

Tim, but every time someone's going, it's like, oh, damn, they've got that one. Damn, they got that. Mine is have fun. Have fun doing it.

Phil Street: 01:19:58

Great stuff, I think. Yeah. We got a needle upon eagle. You are.

Timothy R Andrews: 01:20:04

Thank you very much, everybody, for coming to celebrate our 50th birthday, whatever you call it. 50th episode. Thank you all very much for your time. Phil, Sarah, thank you very much for hosting today. Michael, great to have you on this guest.

First time. Great to see you all again. Our previous guest too. And thank you for taking so much time out in your day. I really appreciate it.

Joe McDonnell: 01:20:24

A huge thank you to our brand partners, Graphic Kitchen and Leser Jobs, for their continued support of talking hospitality. Graphic Kitchen bring creative storytelling to life, helping hospitality brands stand out in a crowded market.

Leisurejobs connects top talent with best opportunities in the industry, making it the go to platform for hospitality careers. We're proud to have them both on board.